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Surrogacy Is a Podcast
Surrogacy Is a Podcast
Supporting Intended Parents: Advice from Marly Steinman, Surrogacy & Donor Consultant
Join us in a heartwarming episode where we start off by sharing the incredible journey of our agency's first surrogate baby! We then introduce Marly Steinman, an LMFT and intended parent and donor consultant, who has dedicated her career to supporting intended parents through the complex world of third-party reproduction. Marly brings both her professional and personal experience, helping intended parents navigate surrogacy, egg and sperm donation.
Navigating the emotional rollercoaster of surrogacy is no small feat. This episode sheds light on the various stages intended parents go through—from grief and denial to acceptance and gratitude. We emphasize the importance of acknowledging these emotions and maintaining a positive relationship with the surrogate. Open communication and support systems, including counseling, play crucial roles in this journey. Marly also shares how connecting with others who have been through surrogacy can provide comfort and alleviate fears, ensuring that intended parents feel supported every step of the way.
Choosing the right surrogacy agency can be overwhelming, but this episode breaks down the critical factors to consider. From setting clear communication and boundaries to understanding agency policies on payments and rematches, we cover it all. Marly offers practical advice on finding the perfect match with a surrogate and the importance of transparency and honesty in building a healthy relationship centered around the baby.
Oh hi, how are you? Good Happy Friday, God happy Friday.
Speaker 2:Yes, can we just say every time we do a podcast, we'll just pretend it's Friday, today day, but I think we should always do a podcast on Friday because there's so many things to be grateful for.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's been a week. It's been a. It's been a week. I am I'm trying to focus on mostly positive things, but it's been a week. It's been a week. I'm trying to focus on mostly positive things, but it's been a hell of a week. So happy Friday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you know what the thing that we do get to celebrate is? We've recently had our first surrogate baby delivered through our agency.
Speaker 1:I know, oh my God, and it's been. I've known that the baby's coming in June and we've been counting down and then for the the day to actually arrive and to know that, like all of the efforts and all of the labor that we've all put into to making this agency what it is, seeing a new life come into the world, seeing a new mom tears in her eyes holding her baby, and a surrogate so beautiful, so proud of what she's created and what she's done, it's just like makes it all worth it.
Speaker 2:It's all worth it yeah.
Speaker 2:And all of it, and even the days that seem like the week has gone by and it's I'm tired and I know you're tired, the days that seem like the week has gone by and I'm tired and I know you're tired. But I also know I got to see a text message of her with her intended parents holding the baby, the week after baby was born, and I'm just, I don't know. I'm on sky high realizing that we are doing good work and it does. It makes it all worth it. So today is a good day and, yes, happy Friday.
Speaker 1:Happy first baby of many. We have lots of babies on the way and I just love babies and I'm just so glad that they get to be in the world and grow up and be loved by their parents. It's pretty freaking cool yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm excited we get to talk to Marley today, who we adore. She has made a lot of beautiful matches with us. We have a ton of matches with her amazing intended parents. In guiding them on their journey to being able to be parents to Marley, she has struggled herself personally and has made it her mission to really just bring the education back for these parents to feel comfortable and confident as they're finding the right agency. So it's been an honor to work with her and we're so excited to have her on and share her story and how she got started and what she's doing. So let's do that.
Speaker 1:I think it's such a great resource. I know there's a lot of different resources for intended parents, different concierge services and lots of options that they can choose to help them and I know that's our job as the agency really to support everyone. But there's this specialness, to those intended parents who are able to connect with someone like Marley, that she provides this extra layer of support that there just can't be enough. There just can't be too much for sure. So I'm really excited to meet her. I know you get to spend a lot of time with her and I get to see, hear about all of her parents and hear from our journey coordinators how much they love working with Marley matches, because she just never leaves the side of these IPs and they're always ready and always prepared and so confident and educated. And so I'm really excited to get to spend some face time with Marley today too, because you're always hogging her, I know, I know.
Speaker 2:I can't say I'm not going to stop, sorry, All right, well, let's bring her in.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, happy Friday you guys. Thank you for being here, and I know that internet struggles on a Friday afternoon are not fun, so that was a fun way to get started, but I'm glad Casey's able to join us now.
Speaker 2:Me too, and we are so excited to have you. You have been such a beautiful resource for these intended parents and I am really excited for the opportunity for us to learn and for you to share just a little bit of how you got started and your process of everything. Sunshine does it better than I the intro, so I will let her do that Welcome to Surrogacy is a podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there we go. There's the intro. We have Marlee Steinman joining us today. Marlee, you are an LMFT, is that right? Yes, it is, and you are what? How do you, I guess? How do you describe the? I guess you're an intended parent consultant and you help intended parents kind of figure out how to even start this really complex journey. Is that about sum it up?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So I was a marriage and family therapist for about 12, 13 years, specializing in infertility and some other things too anxiety, other presenting problems and then, after my own journey, I decided I wanted to help intended parents in a more concrete way and so I opened up a concierge service who helps intended parents who are using surrogates and egg donors and sperm donors sometimes you know two of those, sometimes just one, but essentially third party reproduction and I help them sort of navigate the process and find a match and also kind of like liaison all the way through. And so that's kind of yeah, where it led to.
Speaker 2:You know it sounds a whole lot like advocating in the way that we have when we started. Surgacy is the advocacy side and just the education component. Right, because you were an intended parent, you know just what you don't know through this process. Right, you don't know what you don't know. And entering into this and navigating it and the hurdles, I think you have that really beautiful perspective. And then also, with your licensing and being able to bring forth the sadness that maybe comes with the idea I've decided I need to use surrogacy, I'd love if you can maybe share a little bit about how you even entered into this space in the beginning.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So you know I didn't know a lot about it. I was seeing patients struggling with infertility, a little bit of third party, but I, you know I wasn't super informed on how it all worked. And then, you know, I had my own journey. I, you know, started trying to conceive a little bit later than I had imagined, due to kind of building my therapy career and the time I met my husband. So I kind of didn't really know what my fertility levels were, what my AMH was, what my FSH was. You know, nobody had really talked to me about that and you know my OB didn't inquire and so I didn't really kind of have a sense of where I was at. So when I started trying and started having difficulty, you know not that I was surprised because I'd seen other people go through it.
Speaker 3:But it's like, you know, you're told your whole life like use a condom, you know, practice abstinence, don't get pregnant, like it's so easy. And then you know you go to try and do something that should come biologically, naturally to you. It almost like you're given right as a woman to be able to, you know, produce and carry a baby, and then you can't do it, and so it's a really hard road and so I, you know I came up against that. I had several early miscarriages, I had a hard time producing my own eggs and you know, we kind of got to a juncture in the road where, you know, I could continue to keep trying. It had been four and a half years and I couldn't hold a pregnancy. And you know a lot of speculated reasons, some unexplained infertility, some due to, like, the shape of my uterus, you know, poor egg quality due to likely endometriosis, and so it was hard for me to get those embryos. They were really precious and my doctor at the time was like, you know, the likelihood that you're going to be able to carry is very low and the likelihood that you're going to keep being able to get embryos especially what retrievals are like for you is also not likely. And so these embryos are really precious and if you really want to be a parent, like I think, surrogacy would be the best choice for you. So you know it did take me some time.
Speaker 3:I entered into it feeling like I was processing a lot of loss, like it was kind of not what I pictured. You know I, when I did Aaron and Sarah Foster's podcast Aaron mentioned it as kind of negotiating your way away from what you saw yourself doing and it kind of felt like that. You know, it's like it got farther and farther. You know, first it's IVF, then it's I can't carry, and it started to get farther and farther away from like what I saw. And I think the reason I felt so strongly after I went through my journey about helping other intended parents in this very specific way is because I didn't enter the process feeling super happy and grateful that I had this option. You know as much as I wish that I did.
Speaker 3:I felt like it was all a lot of. It was a sacrifice. It was a strain financially, it was a strain emotionally. I felt really, really fearful about what it was going to mean for my children, for my relationship, like you know, at the time it was almost seven years ago now when I actually started on the journey of it, and so I was thinking like I don't know anyone who's been through surrogacy Like am I going to have this child and am I going to connect with the child? Is the child going to be like who is this woman, you know? Or am I going to feel like am I going to feel like this child is mine and I think you know, and I had shame around not being able to do what I saw other people doing, and so I wasn't really able to access that gratitude and that experience that can be and is so beautiful with surrogacy.
Speaker 3:And as I kind of transitioned through the process, I started to really see a shift and then, where I got to the end and to where I'm at now, I really experienced the beauty and how amazing and magical it was to be able to conceive a child this way and how grateful I am. Even now, going back, would I change it? Probably not. And so it created a passion in me, because I started out with such a difficult time with it, to really feel like this is something that I so much believe in, and I had zero hope that I was going to be able to be a mom, zero hope that I was going to be able to get to a place where I felt fortunate. And so after my journey, I really saw the holes in some ways in advocacy and that's not to say that agencies aren't wonderful and that people aren't doing their jobs, but for me, what I wanted as an intended parent at times I didn't have. And so I really saw an opportunity for me with the, I think, education I have in mental health in addition to my own experience, to kind of be able to help people in a more concrete way.
Speaker 3:And you know, since then I've seen a lot of my intended parents have a similar experience. You know, the first, in the first consultation there's a. You know, there can be a lot of tears and some parents are great and they're ready to go, and then I see them at the end and you know, the day that baby comes whether it's two in the morning and I'm sure you guys know this, you know cause, you probably experienced it similarly but whether it's two in the morning or five in the morning, when that baby comes and I get a picture and I, you know, see the antenna, parents and how happy they are and the surrogate and how amazing she feels to be able to give such a gift. It's like it's tears for me every time and it fills me up with so much happiness. So I just really love what I do and I know that Casey and I have talked about this experience as well and how we feel, so you know, like-minded on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's easy to fall in love in doing what you're doing when it's work like this, and I think that many of the professionals, whether it be the attorneys or the doctors and or the agencies, a lot of them are in this field for a reason because they have a desire to help be part of that change, and I think that's huge Get people to that finish line.
Speaker 1:I think something that's really interesting about the way that you've described that process is that the stages that you had to go through. I know that your mission is probably not to help people jump ahead to the gratitude part, because you can't write Like. You have to process all those stages, the grief, the denial, the anger, the fear, like all of those things. You have to feel those feelings. But I guess how, when you support intended parents through this journey, how do you help them get to the gratitude stage or to get to that acceptance stage when they're going through all of these feelings?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I think in some way it's something that comes naturally with the process.
Speaker 3:But I do tell them kind of upfront, if they happen to be parents who are struggling or parent who are struggling, you know, I very much let them know like it's okay, like it's okay to be where you're at.
Speaker 3:It doesn't mean that you can't move forward. It doesn't mean that you can't take these things in digestible steps and keep moving forward, because a lot of times that's what we have to do in grief, regardless of what grief it is, we have to keep moving forward. You know it doesn't mean we don't take the next step and we don't push through, but sometimes it's okay and it's a process. So I feel like part of that helps so that they don't feel like I'm supposed to feel happy, I'm supposed to feel okay with this, I'm supposed to not be fearful, because all those things are natural. And of course I I do talk to them about like how much of that is shared with the surrogate and what that dynamic looks like, because I do think it's important for a surrogate to be able to feel, you know, some kind of positive experience in those initial stages in the relationship, because they are doing something pretty big and you know, I think that that dynamic is really important to preserve. But I do tell parents in terms of what they're struggling with and if that means like get counseling sometimes it's marriage counseling, but whatever it is I just say listen, this is where you're at for today. It doesn't mean that's where you're going to be at next week or the week after. And from what I have seen, as the journey moves through, your feelings change and I also have a lot of intended parents as I was that are embarking on this journey and it's not like they're feeling like this is amazing, we're at the finish line.
Speaker 3:If they still feel like, yeah, we're doing this, sometimes and we'll see, you know like they still don't have the confidence and faith that it's necessarily going to work. So I kind of just try and remind them you are doing something different. You know like this is the first time that you've kind of made a decision for your child. The first best decision or good decision you can make for your child is to put them somewhere where they will be safe and that they can come into this world. And it's a hard decision sometimes and it feels like a sacrifice in the moment. But if you can kind of think about it that way it's like this is a decision for them to try something different in a way that might keep them safe in a way that we haven't been able to, then that can be something. That's kind of a way you can think about it, and I really think the main thing is just like being where you're at, getting support, talking to other people who've been through surrogacy.
Speaker 3:For me that was super helpful because a lot of the times I was told that, like the fears other people had too, and that that wasn't their experience at the end. So I think that that can be helpful too, because I know what helps us when we feel scared is not being alone, and so when you can talk to somebody that's had similar experience, I think it really helps to to give people some comfort. And so I try and you know I'm super open with my parents. I will tell them anything about myself or my own journey If that can help to give them some peace of mind.
Speaker 2:It's huge, because I think that when I'm talking with these intended parents, one of the first things that I tell them is I understand that this maybe isn't your first choice in deciding surrogacy as the route to grow your family.
Speaker 2:I know that there comes a lot of heartache with that, and I also find what we do with the surrogates and being able to share some perspective, because they do come in with such excitement and in a joyful heart.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to help this family and you have this image of how it's going to be.
Speaker 2:But sharing a perspective and I've done this in the years that we've been talking with women and educating them on this process of sharing maybe this intended mom has gone through so much loss and maybe she's gotten to the first trimester and then she got to the second trimester and then she had a loss at the third trimester, and so for that mom, she might not actually be able to physically open up her mouth and go, okay, this is good, it's fine.
Speaker 2:She might be waiting for that shoe to drop, even to the very end of this, and it isn't until she's holding that baby and realizing this is real, this is happening, that she is able to truly express her gratitude to that process and to this other human who has leaned in and wanted to walk along that journey. But I think it's huge what you said it's having other resources to know you're not alone and for these intended parents who've gone through that grave to lean on those resources and friends and other maybe people and in groups, facebook, social media where they can see and talk about this and maybe that could do some healing for them too too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, when you work they're not a super or not a super safe space to share.
Speaker 1:But I do love that sense of when you have somebody that's a few steps ahead of you on the journey or further along is so beneficial because you want to ask somebody like what can I expect next? And you can have your friends and your family to support you, but they don't always understand exactly what you're talking about and you don't have time to be explaining what the acronyms mean and what all these specific terminology means and it's just like, oh, forget it, I'm just not going to talk to my, my best friend about it, because it takes too long to explain or they're going to have some weird judgment or they're going to spout off some silly nonsense thing that they didn't think about. The impact of how that would feel to hear and so having other people that have been through it is huge. And also I think what's really neat is reaching a hand back to people that are a few steps behind you and supporting them too is probably really helpful and healing, even even with what you're doing. You must get so much joy out of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, you know, helping people always makes us feel good. You know, I think there's like, really and I'm sure that's part of the reason that surrogates want to help too because I think there's no greater purpose in life than doing something that, like, changes someone else's life. You know, it's really. There's nothing better, and so I think in any way that anybody can have a bigger purpose, greater than themselves is healing.
Speaker 2:It is Now okay. So you meet amazing intended parents, you help them, you guide them when they come to you. You are a bag of resources to really explain what is it going to look like. And then you are thoughtfully connecting them to agencies. Because we all know, unfortunately, one thing a lot of these agencies have in common is there's a long wait list typically for them when they get to that agency. But you kind of are that concierge service that has these agencies that you confidently know they're going to be well supported and then are working with these agencies in connecting your intended parents and hopefully getting them to a place where they're not having to necessarily sit on a wait list and are finding that right fit. Maybe the clinic or the doctor has an expectation. What does that look like? Can you walk us through? Obviously you've done a journey. What are those things that you share with the intended parents? They need to be on the lookout for, whether they choose to work with you or not. And then, what are you looking for when you're working with an agency?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So you know, for me my whole mission is, of course, I want my IPs matched as quickly as possible and want them to find a match and get the things that they want. But for me I'm very much about wanting it to be the right fit and not just about getting the match done. You know, I really want it to be a good match on both sides, because I do see that that really is something that is that will more likely yield a positive journey. So you know, when I first meet intended parents, they reach out to me. If they come from a referral source and they say you know, we'd like to schedule a consultation, I'll usually schedule a consultation with them and just kind of really first thing I do before I talk about what I do if they are new to the process is really like give the lay of the land. So I'll kind of explain, you know, how things work, all the different nuances, whether it be like legal or medical. I mean, of course I never give advice beyond my scope, but I'll kind of lay out how things work, what the process looks like, talking about what's important in terms of matching with the surrogate, not necessarily like what kind of surrogate they'd want, but considerations for who they are. I'll talk about insurance. I'll talk about, you know, just all the things they might need to know in terms of the way the process works, how much time for a match, typically until a transfer, what you know, what the doctors are typically looking for, depending on what physician they're with, how it works with records. And then they'll sometimes ask me some questions. We'll talk a little bit about, like you know, legal, not from the perspective of, like me giving it some advice, but the information I know of of, like, how those things are impacted from a legal perspective, like different States and the Roe v Wade and, as you guys know, all the things. Um, because what I really tell them is like, listen, you need to collect all your information. I am so happy to help any intended parent that comes to me, but I also really want them to get all the information to figure out what's best for them. Do they want to use the concierge? Should they go to an agency? Do they want to wait on a list? Do they want an expedited match? What would be the best fit? And I really feel like, in order to know that, you really need to know the full picture. So once I've done that, then I'll go usually more into like how I can help, you know in the two parts, first being like helping them to find a match, you know, hopefully it's expedited, and then kind of helping them be the liaison, help put their team together and, you know, move them through the process.
Speaker 3:Sometimes, as you guys know, people will keep me on the whole time. Sometimes it'll be, you know, the first little chunk, sometimes it's through the first trimester, it just kind of depends and I leave that open. And for me, you know, I will usually work with the agencies because of course you know the agencies, you know, are a huge part of the picture and I'm grateful to have these great relationships and kind of all be able to work as a team. And then, you know, I really talked to my intended parents about the expectations, as you know case and I, you and I have talked about, like you know, what are the things in working with me that are going to be important. You know, like I want to make sure that we are being transparent and upfront and we are only, you know, looking at one surrogate, like medical records, at a time, and you know if we're thinking about getting pregnant, as you know, parallel, like we want to share that.
Speaker 3:And you know, same thing as I expect from the agency and with the surrogate is like, are there any, you know, time constraints? Is there anything that we need to know? And you know, cause for me, I really want everyone to have a positive experience, and so you know I prep them for the match call, for going into a match call, like what kind of things maybe should we not bring up and save? You know, for myself and the agency, what kind of questions should we ask? You know, if you guys, if there are things you want to know that maybe are best not to come from you, like let me talk to the agency about a way that a surrogate won't then feel like she's on the spot. So I really feel strongly about everybody being super prepared so that no one's caught off guard.
Speaker 3:And the other thing with that too is like I'm pretty honest. So if my intended parents, like have certain expectations or things, I'll say like hey, you know what, that's a realistic expectation, totally fair. Let's see if we can like work out those preferences. If it's something that I feel like is a little outside of the box, like, I'll say, you know, hey, that's not typically something that is in the norm. Of course, ultimately it's up to you, but I'm really honest about kind of like what I see from my experience. And then in terms of the second part of the question with agencies, you know we've I know we've talked a lot about this and for me, like I am not as much about like I just want to work with as many agencies as possible and get as many matches done as possible.
Speaker 3:For me, it's really about like working with agencies and people that are similar to me in the sense of like ethics and what we want out of the journey and transparency and really looking at this as, like the surrogate and the intended parents.
Speaker 3:Everybody is just as important in this equation, and so the relationships I tend to be driven towards are the ones where we can work as a team. You know I have no ego in this whatsoever. I want everyone to work together and the most important thing for me really is the intended parents and the surrogate's relationship is preserved, and I think what I like to do is work with the agency coordinator so that we work together to make sure that's the case, and all the stuff in the middle, all the complicated stuff, all the things that we want to kind of keep out of that relationship, we handle and we kind of work together to just get everything done in the most efficient way that is really considering everyone's needs the surrogate, the intended parents and therefore those relationships are really solid and I get so excited and love working with those kind of agencies that I've built those strong relationships with.
Speaker 2:We love working with concierge services that are like you, because it is nice when we have a partner in this. And don't get me wrong, we love working with these parents, and we do. We have a ton of intended parents that come find us. They know that we have this very quick match process and they are able to find that process and us be able to hold and really kind of guide them through that process that we are doing for these surrogates, which is really special. But when we get our concierge services and not all of them look alike but I will say you have something really special, because I never have to wonder do the parents know what the expectation about this process is, the communication, the timing of it? I feel like your parents come in with very thoughtful profiles put together and real expectations of what does it look like and timing over everything, and so I always like give us more of your parents, marley. That's what I'd love.
Speaker 3:You know me, I love working with you guys too and I'm always, like you know, feel like we're super aligned and you know it's been such a positive experience. So I get like super excited about that because, even like with your case coordinators, we're like you know, I just had a case recently and we were, like you know, we're so happy with the, with the milestones, and when things don't go right together, we're so like, oh, you know, it's like really a team journey and I so appreciate that feeling because it just really feels so good to have everybody on the same page, even when things aren't going as we hope.
Speaker 1:All of our journey coordinators say they can tell you know the difference between intended parents that have Marley and and those that don't. Like, oh, I love Marley's intended parents because they just they're. They're not as dear in the headlights as a lot of other intended parents can be, just they feel so well supported and they know what to expect and they know they can reach you if they're like, hey, this, this intended parent needs the support or how should we go about this? Like, everybody knows that they can rely on you and I and I love hearing that from our journey coordinators like, oh, I love a Marley match.
Speaker 3:Oh, you guys, that makes me feel so good Cause honestly, that's just what I care about, is like my relationships and doing the best I can, and so it like means so much to me. You know I started this business on my own so I just kind of, you know, it's like that's just the most important thing to me, that people feel supported. So you know, really that means so much to me, yeah they do so what are some of the things?
Speaker 2:when you entered into this process and you started looking for an agency, what were those things you wish you could have told the Marley? Now to the Marley, when starting out to be on the lookout, because if maybe they aren't meeting you in person and they haven't come to an agency that has the ability to match them quickly, what are some of those things that you want to tell these intended parents they should be looking for when they're looking at for a good agency?
Speaker 3:So so the agency, right, not as much as the surrogate. So this is such. This is tricky because when I I did, I knew nothing when I first started out. So I met with a lawyer, I had a doctor and I like looked for agencies and what I knew was I wanted a baby yesterday. So all the lists for me. I was like that's a hard no, I cannot wait seven months, like I will sit here and pull my hair out if I don't see a profile for seven months. So you know, I unfortunately had some experiences where I, you know, paid some services and signed up with some agencies that unfortunately weren't good experiences initially. So I kind of had to navigate myself, like finding the solution For me, I would say for people looking for agencies.
Speaker 3:I think you know a couple things. I mean I think number one really set up a Zoom, spend some time on a call, you know, because really you're going to get a sense of somebody and an agency from like getting to know them, asking them questions, you know, in person or on a Zoom. I think you know you really want to make sure that there's a balance with the agency because of course, typically they're going to be the go-to person in between, as you guys know, between the surrogate and intended parents. So I really want to feel like they have my back and they also have the surrogate's back. It's a hard balance to strike, I think, for anyone, but just knowing that the intentions there, that, like you know, we're going to support you and the surrogate and then it's not going to be just like more intended parent focused or more surrogate focused, transparency is super important. So I think you know finding an agency who's always going to tell you the truth, even if it's something that's hard or not ideal, because you know, we know that there are challenges, a lot obstacles. But for me, I think, as long as my intended parents know kind of up front and what's going on, what the delay is, what, it's a lot harder to manage than getting the blanket pulled out from underneath you. I think that is the hardest thing for IPs and I'm sure surrogates feel the same way. So I think you know asking kind of questions like how do you ensure transparency? How do you ensure that, like you know, that the communication is in line? Also, like in terms of reaching case managers, how does that work? I mean, of course everybody has lives outside of this. But, like you know how hard is it going to be for me to get in touch if something really important comes up. Are you guys available if there is a crisis, like, how does that work? Also, support you.
Speaker 3:Offer a surrogate Very, very important, as you guys know. But if a surrogate does not have adequate support, that's a problem for everyone, you know. That's not only a problem for the surrogate does not have adequate support, that's a problem for everyone. That's not only a problem for the surrogate but the intended parents, because she's going to feel like she's walking around navigating this on her own, which is then going to feel really overwhelming, whereas when I notice an agency is really giving a surrogate really quality support and holding her hand, she feels totally contained and safe and then she's just able to enjoy it, and then the dynamic is going to be much less anxious, because nobody wants their surrogate to be pregnant and feel stressed and anxious Like that's not good for anyone. So I think that's really important as well. And then, of course, they're called the concrete things.
Speaker 3:Every agency works differently in terms of, like, what payments are due at what time. What happens if there's a miscarriage? Is there a rematch? What happens if the surrogate backs out, or you know all these different factors. I think you just want to make sure that you know where an agency stands on some of the things that might happen and how that's going to affect you as well.
Speaker 3:So I think that you know, just really asking those questions and you know, when it comes to matching, like you know it's, I think it's helpful to think beforehand kind of the things that you've thought about as an intended parent and asking the agency, like how realistic is this for, like what you guys have? Do you think I'm being realistic? Like what do you think? How long do you think typically this is going to take for what I'm looking for and what is your process? Like you know, do you do a match call? Do you ask a lot of questions on those calls? How am I going to know that, like we're in line with termination or we're in line with the COVID vaccine or communication? Like you know, you just want to make sure that like there's really a thorough vetting process on both sides for how good the match is, because I feel, as I know you guys do, that that's so important and it's not just about throwing a match together and that's not to say that anyone does that, but I think like those things are really important when choosing.
Speaker 2:Well, but there are agencies that do that. I mean, I've experienced that, I've seen that, I've seen that firsthand and it's heartbreaking when you have an intended parent saying, well, I didn't even have a match call, they just gave us each other's contact and gave us some questions to ask, and gosh, I hope they went through those questions and I hope their views on things are similar. But let's go to legal and cross our fingers. You know, you see those things happening. It does. That's reality of it. But it's asking those questions.
Speaker 1:I think it happens a lot too when you're when you're waiting for a long time as an intended parent and maybe you had all these expectations or ideas of what you wanted and what you were looking for in a surrogate. But maybe it's been 12, 18 months that you've been on a list and you finally get a profile and you're like you know, what do I? How much do I really care about the COVID vaccine, or how likely are we to go into a termination, and so the temptation would be there to settle on some things that are really important and shouldn't be settled on. Um, yeah, so I think what are the things that you encourage intended parents that, no matter how eager you are to get moving, no matter how excited you are I know you want your match today what are those deal breaker things that you tell intended parents to think about they want that are reasonable when they're looking at a surrogate candidate?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean communication's important because I think that the surrogate and the intended parent should really be aligned there. So if I have a parent that wants like limited communication, you know it's not ideal for them to have a surrogate who has expectations of more communication, because somebody is going to be hurt and disappointed and likely the intended parents are going to feel the pressure and the surrogate is going to be disappointed and feel, you know, not cared about in the way she wants to be. Same goes on the other side. If the intended parents want to be super involved and they want to have a lot of conversations and the surrogate is kind of like I'd like a little more distance, that's going to cause obstacles in the journey. So I have people think about you know what kind of. And also to a lot of people I talk to they don't know. They're like well, we don't even know where to start, like what is it normally like? We've never been through this before. So I'll kind of usually give them sort of like a baseline of like what the in the middle is Right and then kind of what the both sides are. So I'll kind of say you know, this is kind of typical communication for what I see in a lot of journeys, but you know, I've also seen this and this. So that's the first thing is, I think, really important.
Speaker 3:The other thing, of course, is if they have any specific requirements, I'm like, give it to me up front. You know, I want to know anything specific you might be requiring, whether it's like organic food or glass bottles, whether it's relocation, whatever it is. Because we want to ask ahead of time is the surrogate going to be open to it? Because we don't want to be in a position to be asking something that we didn't agree on before. And I always tell people too, let's not get to legal and have things come out. So timing is everybody on the same page with when they want to move forward? If someone has a limited embryos, how long is the surrogate willing to wait? Like any of the things that could come up are important. And then you know, of course, termination is huge. You know we never want to ask someone to do something with their body they're not comfortable with. But we also don't want people to have a situation and to have a baby that they feel like they aren't equipped to be able to take care of, or who have a life situation that feels insurmountable. So you know, being on the same page about that is really important. And then you know, of course, the things like vaccines. I mean making sure that whether it's COVID or flu, that kind of everybody's on the same page.
Speaker 3:Another thing that comes up sometimes with my intended parents is, you know, they've been through this journey and they really have little hope they're going to be able to conceive. In addition, the doctors probably said not likely, but maybe they want to give it one more shot. But they want to pursue surrogacy, starting now because, you know, just in case it doesn't work, they want to be on a journey, yeah, time. And typically I'll say listen, if you're going to go forward with surrogacy, no matter what, that's okay. I usually don't want to be in a spot of backing out, so I will say, like, if you're going to back out, if you get pregnant, I think we should hold off and move forward. When you guys know, just because I don't, it's not good for me and my relationships with the agencies to back out and it's also terrible for the surrogate, of course, to go through all that and then back out. So I'll say, listen, totally great, if you guys want to do that. If you think you're going to do a second journey, let's just be upfront. You know like let's just let the surrogate know, make sure she's okay with it.
Speaker 3:So if a pregnancy does happen to come and we get lucky, that she's like nosy, we're trying, doesn't feel like somehow there was something she didn't get told, and that you know that everybody feels good about it. And you know that everybody feels good about it and you know that's actually worked out really well because I've had it happen. I have it with one of your. You know one of our surrogates together and you know she knew ahead of time they got really fortunate that their previous surrogate had been through like a year of IVF never worked, and the surrogate got pregnant and the new surrogate is going to be in the process of getting pregnant and it's all good.
Speaker 3:But anything like that that could be something that might make someone feel any type of way. I always say you don't want to have a pregnant surrogate and have a strange relationship, and neither does the surrogate. That does not make for a peaceful process. So let's preserve the relationship and look if you're transparent and it's a no-go. It's not the right match, it just isn't, and we'll find someone who is, and I feel really strongly about that. So I think you know I always am thinking about anything that may come up that would cause some kind of issue about you know thinking about that.
Speaker 2:It can, it can happen, but it's it's if you can communicate what your desires are and what is important to you in the very get go. Everybody has all that laid out and then you can make that decision. Yes, I'm, I'm excited to walk down this, but it doesn't feel good if it's coming at you and you're pregnant and you learn your surrogate, your intended parent, is pregnant. Also. You're excited, but then that maybe has just shifted that perspective.
Speaker 1:You never know it's a roll of the dice of how any surrogate's going to feel about that. I've seen surrogates just be over the moon so happy for their intended parents and then I've seen surrogates feel like really blindsided that oh, I thought that this was their only chance and that's why I picked this couple and, you know, maybe I would have helped somebody else if I knew that they could carry on their own. And I think unmet expectations and unsaid expectations are always a recipe for disappointment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, if it happens on accident, like that is, you know you can't, but it's like when you're going through IVF and you're trying again and you're doing those things consciously and then it feels a little bit. You know, I could see how that would feel off putting to somebody who matched on the premise that that wasn't going to happen.
Speaker 2:And I have had those conversations with the surrogate and I'll say, you know, sometimes maybe she didn't even want to say to anybody that she was considering to do this again because she's already had five miscarriages and it wasn't successful and and so she just held her breath and thought let's try this last time and waited until she knew it was a viable pregnancy before she shared it with anybody. And so sharing you know even the perspective of how maybe a mom might be feeling. The surrogates then realize OK, you know, but it's, it's still just. Everybody wants to know all of the details. We don't want to go to a car dealership and buy a used car and think that we understand how that operates and how it works and then learn something. I'd rather know that that has that ding and go through that process versus in trying to find out after the fact. You know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and totally on both sides.
Speaker 1:you know, with surrogates too, like you know like everything is laid out up front and you know, that way everybody like it's just there's going to be less issues that come up you know, I know there's a lot of fear on the side of surrogates and probably on the side of intended parents was sharing certain things because you're afraid of rejection or you're afraid that somebody is not going to want to match with you because of this.
Speaker 1:Whatever it is, but there is a right fit for everyone. There really is. So I think, just being honest with yourself and overcoming that fear of being transparent about something that is in your life, like whether it's a uh, uh, an ex and a custody arrangement or something that you didn't want to talk about like everybody, everybody knows upfront, then people can decide what level of comfort they have with different things, and it's people don't like being left in the dark. Um, I'm curious to something you've said and you've mentioned a couple of times since we've been talking today is there's some things that you think that yourself and the agency should absorb and handle in the background to preserve the relationship between the surrogate and the intended parents? What are some of those things that you recommend parents and surrogates handle with their agency and with the other parties, rather than bringing them directly to their surrogate or to their intended parents?
Speaker 3:I mean, basically, I think, anything that doesn't have to do with, like, the baby and the relationship and fun, you know, of course, anything financial, anything that has to do with like maybe something that's like outside of the contract with, like you know, reimbursements, like you know, approval for things. You know, sometimes, like I'll have intended parents who maybe want to like wait a couple months for a transfer and that's kind of come up and the surrogate is planning to move forward. So it's kind of like instead of going to that surrogate and saying like hey, we're thinking of waiting and like putting her on the spot, so she feels like pulled to say yes, even if she doesn't want to, you know having those conversations so that everyone has the time to think about it. Like stuff like relocation, you know, if intended parents decide they want a surrogate to relocate, you know talking to the agency about those things so that they can go to the surrogate and she can kind of talk through and ask questions. Cause I think the last thing also that you want anyone to do is say yes when they're not comfortable. That's when problems start to arise.
Speaker 3:So, like those situations, I think, when, like if we're kind of figuring out like you know how we're gonna if there's something extra that IPs want. So if they're all of a sudden thinking like, oh, we want her to go see this extra doctor, or we want her to drive to, you know, the fertility clinic when she's supposed to go to the monitoring clinic, or you know, we're wondering if she minds eating organic, all this like things like that I think are always best to just say like to the. I'll say to the case coordinator like, hey, this is what the IPs are thinking. Will you check in with her, see how she feels? And then, even if it's not like, even if there's some middle ground, we can kind of come to it and that way, when the intended parents talk and the surrogate talks there nobody's feeling like they're put on the spot or have to agree to something and they're just kind of focusing on the relationship and the baby and how was Halloween or Valentine's Day? And just kind of doing that.
Speaker 3:So I think, really anything that has to do with like an ask on either side, you know, even if I've had sometimes the case coordinators come to me and they'll say, you know, the surrogate hasn't heard from 10 parents and she just, you know, she's hoping everything's OK and she's wondering, you know, and you know it was early on in the process and these are intended parents who had a stillborn for their first pregnancy, so they were kind of hesitant about growing the relationship.
Speaker 3:So but I was like that's good to know. They really love the surrogate, they want her to feel comfortable. So I went to the parents and I said, hey, you know, she just wanted to make sure, like you're feeling good and everything. You know she hasn't heard from you. And they were like, oh my gosh, yes, we, you know it's a little bit weird for us because of everything we've been through and we've been busy, but like, of course we want her to feel supported. We'll make an effort to like reach out over text and say hope you're doing well and it's like those kinds of things that like are just so much better when they can be kind of mediated, as opposed to like going directly to somebody and having them feel, you know, like on the defense or bad or it's awkward. So I always recommend, you know, navigating those things through the people that are there, like myself.
Speaker 2:I always say to the intended parents when I'm doing that first consultation and kind of explaining to them how we're going to support them on this journey. It's kind of like having a wedding planner or a good wedding planner right, you want the music to change from the flower girl to the bridesmaid to then changing at the right time when she walks down the aisle. You want the announcement when they're cutting the cake to happen from the perspective as the intended parent and the surrogate. This is a journey that we know that not everybody's coming to this with joy and excitement, but we want to be able to let them celebrate the wins medical screening, clearance, legal clearance, embryo transfer, heartbeat confirmation those are the wins that we want them to linger in. And so, as the agency and from your perspective, as that concierge service, we want to be able to navigate all the behind the scenes where the wedding planner is running around with her head cut off, making sure everything is perfect, so that they can enjoy the experience. And I think that's really key in this right.
Speaker 3:Totally. That's an amazing analogy, because the bride is also like emotionally, like activated at all times, because you're like so stressed and you're like, oh my gosh. So it's, and it's kind of similar to like intended parents and probably surrogates, you know, maybe to a little bit less of a degree, but like you know, because a lot of intended parents are so like beaten down, you know, and it feels so precious and it's such an important thing that it's easy when you come at things. I was like this myself. You know there's so much emotional charge, so right, I mean understandably so, but I think when people that aren't emotionally charged are navigating it, then you kind of get to an easier resolution, um, as opposed to people that are feeling anxious or, you know, in that kind of state.
Speaker 1:I think it's so great for an intended parent who might be feeling something. Maybe their surrogate posted something or said something that made them feel fearful or like oh my God, is she going on roller coasters? She said she was taking her kids to magic mountain, like is she going on roller coasters while she's pregnant? You don't want them to say to their surrogate, I hope you're not going on any roller coasters, right? But they can tell you. She said she's going to Magic Mountain, like, oh you know, I'm really scared. If she's going to go on a roller coaster, like, then you can say to the agency and you guys can help, yeah.
Speaker 3:Perfect example of that is I had a surrogate who was posting on Instagram that she was repainting her room, and so she posted a picture. And she's got the paint brush and she's pregnant, she's painting. And so my IPs were like, oh my God, she's not wearing a mask, is she using like paint? That's non-toxic, what's happening? But they didn't want to reach out to her and say, hey, I just saw your gram and you're posting Like that feels a little bit like you know.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, in that case I reached out to the case manager. I was like, hey, listen, you know, do you mind just checking in and making sure she knows, throwing a mask and asking about? But then it comes from the case manager that's like, hey, I just want to check in, it's not coming from the parents and there's no one. That's like emotionally. And so we were able to resolve it with the surrogate. It was like, oh yeah, sure, and I, you know, I have a mask right here, whatever it is, and we worked it out. But that's a perfect, same kind of example of like she's on a roller coaster.
Speaker 1:Oh um, I and I think that's really scary. Sometimes surrogates might feel that way too and they can bring things to the agency that my intended parent said this and I feel like they're really like really texting me 10 times a day and it's a lot, and like I don't want to tell them. Hey, stop bothering me, but maybe you can communicate to them.
Speaker 3:Like maybe we could slow dial that back a little bit, Cause she's checking in with me 10 times a day while I'm at work, or um totally, and the psych background I feel like helps a little bit with that kind of like figure out ways to express things that are like the most benign, you know. So I try and like yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:You guys know too, because you're it's that ongoing right and finding an agency that can offer that type of support. We have four sessions that we have for the antenna parents. That's part of our agency V, because we see that most antenna parents will be the last to take care of themselves. Like I know, I have to do this big financial thing. Last thing I want to do is add one more additional cost associated to this, and so for us, it's making sure that we have those necessary tools for them to access and have.
Speaker 1:Prioritize their mental health because there's nothing. I mean I just can't imagine. I know as a surrogate it's exciting and it's overwhelming and it's scary, but as a parent, I can't imagine the amount of anxiety and stress and fear and the amount of trust that you're putting into another person who was previously a stranger and I just I can't imagine going through that without mental health support. And I know a lot of agencies prioritize mental health support for surrogates, as they should, because it is important, but I think there's a big lack of that for intended parents who really have a need and and in a specific type of support too, because infertility and and and surrogacy is a very unique process that not a lot of people can relate to and people even have negative opinions about thinking that people have judgment about it and some intended parents might be even more fearful about who they share their journey with.
Speaker 1:They don't want to hear any of that negativity, or they can't. You know, I think it's so important to prioritize the mental health of intended parents through this. I just can't imagine the courage that it takes to be an IP. I can't even imagine.
Speaker 2:Well, you, marlee, had shared, I mean, your license and that's your background, but you had mentioned there's a few different professionals in this landscape that you would you have encouraged and referred parents to. Who are those people that you could? I mean encouraged and referred parents to. Who are those people that you could. I mean that you have recommended that are good resources if these parents are like. I want to start this, but maybe I need to go and just talk with somebody and work through some of these things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you mean in terms of just like mental health support. Yeah, I mean I really, you know, recommend that people you know speak to a therapist. I mean, I think you know there's counselors who specialize in third party. I think it's really important that people see someone who specializes in third party because they know the nuances and the emotional landscape of what that looks like. Landscape of what that looks like. It's also good if they specialize in intended parents. Some of them I know who a lot of my IPs work with also specialize in pregnancy loss and fertility. So it's kind of like the whole thing.
Speaker 3:I also recommend sometimes too, that people do couples if they're having marriage challenges, because a lot of people do have really solid marriages but when they go through this experience there can be obstacles and being harder to navigate. So I also recommend doing that. But also it's perspective and mindset, so they also kind of work with them around that and maybe for people who aren't as on board or interested in traditional therapy, something like that will feel good. So I think it kind of depends on the person. But I think the most important thing is it's somebody that has expertise and experience in this specific niche because, you know, infertility, especially third party, is very unique. So I always recommend either, like you know, a third party clinician who deals, who speaks with IPs, or one of those people who are like a holistic kind of person that approaches it from like a spiritual perspective, maybe mind body approach as well. That's huge.
Speaker 1:That's really. I didn't think about that. From that that more, I think I'm seeing a lot more acupuncture and involved in in surrogacy and preparing for embryo transfer and I've never had acupuncture. It like terrifies me, but I know a lot of people really had a lot of success.
Speaker 2:I've seen so many where they'll have a transfer, one and two with the best quality embryos and then they do. The only thing they change with the third best quality embryo is acupuncture and seeing it be successful Not once, not twice, but a ton of times.
Speaker 3:So I and it's really incredible because there's like a lot of acupuncturists now, like you know, like Danica and Katia, who like specialize in really like treating the whole, like whole thing, you know mindset, and so I think the acupuncture helps, but it's also just that like outlet and that person who brings such a like warm spiritual kind of presence, and so a lot of my P's really find comfort, like from those types of experiences as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, I know it's really silly, but I, um, I used to think that I, I just, I don't know I would think about acupuncture and things like that as being kind of woo woo. But then I watched this episode of uh, the dog whisperer and Cesar Milan did acupuncture on a dog and the dog I know the dog wasn't bringing any like expectations or baggage to what he was going to get out of acupuncture, right, but he, they did acupuncture on the dog and it really helped. So I was like, oh, I guess there's something to this because the dog is not having like a false reaction right, it couldn't be.
Speaker 1:I mean dogs are the most honest resource we have, like they're.
Speaker 3:So you know what I mean. And for I will say, for egg retrievals, for STEM, acupuncture is like really like a lot of the doctors are saying, it's like really the only thing that is really like evidence based in terms of being helpful. So I'm a big component, I'm a big advocate. I'm a big advocate for acupuncture. And like spiritual things, I think it's like do whatever resonates with you, right, like meditation, like there's so many different kinds of self-help that you can get. I think different things resonate for different people, but like I'm such a proponent of like self-growth, finding comfort, finding peace, whatever the way you can do it, like go for it, you can love yourself.
Speaker 1:Do it. Treat yourself Well before we let you go. I know we've taken a lot of your time today. I would love for you to just share, for anyone who's listening, if they wanted to take advantage of the resources that you offer, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you? Or what do you recommend for if there's intended parents that are like I need Marley to help me. I have no idea what I'm doing. How do they reach you? What's the best way?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so my website, surrogacybymarleycom. You can reach out to me directly from there or you can if you search Marley Steinman and you search like fertility surrogacy concierge, you'll probably find my website. If you don't remember the name, you can also reach me on Instagram just with my Marley Steinman, with my name. I'm not like I haven't really gotten huge into social media yet, but you can reach me that way, um, and you should be able to get. I think my phone number is on my website too. You know they can always reach out to you guys. I know you have my personal information and if you want more information, you know like I've done a few podcasts and things like that. You can look up. But I would say the best way is through the website, to just shoot me an email and I would be happy to get back to you. I do consultations and, you know, happy to kind of see if I could be a fit or direct you to somebody who might be Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, we'll make sure we put all that information in the show notes so anybody can access it if they need to, and thank you so much for spending this time with us today and being patient with our difficult difficulties.
Speaker 3:Oh my God. No, you guys. Thanks too. It's a pleasure, I you know. As soon as I heard you guys were doing a podcast, I'm like I have to come on, I to come on I, you know, I just adore you guys and I love working with you and I'm great, always grateful to be able to have this conversation and be a part of such a beautiful community, and so truly, all my pleasure and I really appreciate it.