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Surrogacy Is a Podcast
Surrogacy Is a Podcast
Surrogacy Lactation 101: Real Tips for Pumping, Suppressing, & Inducing Milk with Jacqueline Kincer
Breastfeeding during a surrogacy journey can feel overwhelming, but you’re not alone. Whether you’re a surrogate navigating milk suppression or an intended mother hoping to induce lactation, we’re here with real, practical tips and heartfelt support. 💗
In this episode, we’re joined by Jacqueline Kincer, a compassionate lactation consultant and founder of @holisticlactation. With a experience supporting adoptive mothers in inducing lactation and a surrogate with exclusive pumping, Jacqueline shares her knowledge to guide you every step of the way. Together, we dive into:
1️⃣ Lactation Challenges and Support: Explore common lactation challenges, from the emotional to the physical, and how to get the right support.
2️⃣ Effective Strategies for Breast Milk Production: Learn how to boost milk supply with practical tips like early and frequent milk removal, staying hydrated, and using pumps effectively.
3️⃣ Options for Inducing Lactation Without Medications: Discover natural methods for inducing lactation and how to decide if this is the right path for you.
4️⃣ Options for Suppressing Milk Production: For surrogates, we cover ways to suppress milk safely and comfortably after delivery.
5️⃣ Lactation Expectations & Flexibility: Understand the importance of staying flexible with your lactation goals and embracing the journey with grace.
6️⃣ Donor Breast Milk Considerations: Hear insights on when and how donor breast milk might play a role in your feeding plan.
7️⃣ Holistic Lactation Support Resources: Find out about online courses, support, and supplements available through Holistic Lactation® that can make your journey smoother. Explore more at holisticlactation.com.
If you’re on a surrogacy journey and looking for expert advice on pumping, suppressing, or inducing milk, this episode is packed with everything you need. 💚 Tune in and remember—you’ve got a whole community cheering you on every step of the way!
I was talking to Brianna and she was like I think you need to take a week off and like, because every time you take time off you're like I miss work. I want to go back to work, yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, and if you think about it, we actually haven't done a vacation, not like an actual vacation, in a while, a long while, yeah, I can't remember.
Speaker 1:I know, so maybe it's time and that's okay, I can't remember.
Speaker 3:I know. So maybe it's time and that's okay, but I am excited for today because I think when what we're dealing with, or at least what I'm dealing with when these surrogates that we're working with who deliver, some of them are saying I don't want my milk coming in, and then a week or two weeks later they're calling me so angry because they're in so much pain and I don't know the right tools. I've given them a little bit of suggestions and help in all this, but I'm really eager and excited to have Jacqueline come in so we can ask these questions and understand truly, like what are the ways?
Speaker 1:what are my options? Yeah, yeah, I that was like for my. My first journey that was the hardest part was suppressing my milk, and I never do that again. Did you ever suppress your milk? Or every pregnancy you've had, did you always?
Speaker 3:I always pumped, and even with my surrogacy journeys. I pumped for nine months for the first journey, in six months for the second.
Speaker 1:So it's always a freaking saint man you're. It's like such a giver. It just blows my mind. I'm so selfish and you're so wonderful.
Speaker 3:No, but I liked it, I enjoyed it. Well A I was able to lose weight really quickly. I felt my body was in a better place, you know just in that time, and I was eating a lot, but I was also not gaining weight. So I was like this is kind of cool. Yeah, that is kind of cool. Then, packing up this big box of milk to send to them, I always was like, yeah, that's right, okay, here you go, send it off.
Speaker 1:This is a point of pride, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's a pretty cool thing.
Speaker 1:It's a pretty cool thing we're able to do. I think we take a lot for granted. We have a lot to be proud of.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we do, we do, and I'm excited Jacqueline will come in. She's going to give us all the tools, tips and tricks and we'll have this resource. Do you want to pump?
Speaker 1:Do you not want to pump? What do you want to do? Yeah, just learn how to learn how to use these magical breasts that we've gotten.
Speaker 3:How not to use them if we don't want to. Exactly, exactly. Let's do this.
Speaker 2:Let's bring her in, okay okay, hi, jacqueline hi Sunshine, hello, casey welcome to surrogacy is a podcast.
Speaker 1:We're so excited to chat with you, um. For this, the month of August is breastfeeding awareness month, so we're really excited to chat with you in particular, about all of your experience and background in breastfeeding and lactation and all of the mysterious things that go into it One of the oldest things of time that still baffles us all.
Speaker 2:Oh, so true, so true. Right, it's like this ancient thing, but we're all still learning.
Speaker 1:I know, isn't it crazy? It's like this is how humanity has survived for so long and we still struggle. Crazy, it's like this is how humanity has survived for so long and we still struggle. So I'm excited for you to share all of your insight and wisdom and knowledge and where you come at this from. So I was learning a little bit about your background and how you kind of struggled with breastfeeding in your own journey, and then this has become a passion of yours. Would you like to tell everybody a little bit about yourself and what you do and introduce yourself?
Speaker 2:I will do that. Um, yeah, I, you know, like to tell people that being a lactation consultant wasn't, you know when I was a kid and they asked you what do you want to be when you grow up? Uh, didn't know that was a thing, obviously was not on my radar. But then I became a mom and I was like, whoa, this is hard. I took a 12 week long class on birth to prepare for that and still wasn't prepared, but definitely didn't know what I needed to know about breastfeeding.
Speaker 2:I took a breastfeeding class when I was pregnant because our birth class instructor encouraged us to go do that. In fact, I think she actually required it, which was good. But what I got out of that class was all of the benefits of breast milk, not actually how to breastfeed. So I didn't realize that I thought I had done all the things right. No, totally didn't. So I had a lactation consultant in the hospital. She was terrible. I had a doula who was sort of old school, so only mildly helpful. I don't recall my midwife ever helping me with breastfeeding.
Speaker 2:The pediatrician I chose was actually an IBCLC, so that's a board certified lactation consultant. She assured me that I was doing everything just fine and to stop worrying about which position I should use or whatever. But then I was like well, so then why are my nipples scabbed and bruised and why does it hurt so bad? And she was just very dismissive. So after all of those experiences of like not even you know, this is all new territory. I was a a stockbroker, so it's not like I was remotely involved in health care in any way. I did all the quote-unquote right things that most moms do not do and I still didn't get the support I needed. And I was like, whoa, we are up against something really big here. Um, because becoming a mom and postpartum like that's already a lot, but then this whole other layer of breastfeeding on top of that that. I was like it's a miracle, anyone does it. So yeah, that's what I, that's what.
Speaker 3:I experienced and why I became a lactation consultant.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's crazy Because I remember when I had my first and you go into this really naively and what I remember experiencing was I felt ashamed if I wasn't able to produce the milk and my baby was hungry. And when I'm talking to the doctor and the lactation specialists and them explaining, you know you need to do this and you do that and like I've done all those things, you change your diet, do this and they almost it comes across. It has at least in my experience and women I've talked to where they feel like it must be me, I'm doing something wrong and then you carry that with all of these hormones that you've just dumped out when you're delivering and it's a mess. It can cause chaos for so many. So I'm glad there are women who are leaning into just the reality that there's a missing link to us being able to guide and educate these women and giving them the support they need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what you just said, what you put to words, is so accurate, and it took me a long time, even as a lactation consultant, to really identify what the barrier was for women getting help. And it is that shame, that sense of feeling like I should be able to do this myself. No one's really even told us that. That's not even part of the messaging of breastfeeding either. But it's like this weird thing that we all go through, where we just think, if we can't figure it out on our own, something is wrong with us and it's so subconscious. Maybe it's hormonal, I don't even know, but you hit the nail on the head. So thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mom, guilt is like, yeah, come it. Literally. It comes right at the beginning. If you, yeah, whether you're struggling to breastfeed or you're choosing to bottle feed, or you have to go back to work or whatever it is, it's always it's extra challenging, and I know there's a lot of benefits for breastfeeding and everybody knows that, but it still isn't something that everybody can do.
Speaker 1:I was really lucky. I actually had my first when I was really young and my mom was huge into breastfeeding and was like you're going to breastfeed your baby and I was like, yes, ma'am, I'm going to do whatever you say, because I don't know what I'm doing. So I I was really successful at breastfeeding as a 16 year old mom, so I just got really lucky. I think that. But sometimes the baby doesn't know what to do too. It's not just that you don't know what to do as a mom. The baby doesn't always know what to do either, and so it's like it has to be a perfect. Everything just has to align perfectly for somebody to have ease in breastfeeding, and I was one of those lucky people, so I should be quiet.
Speaker 2:No no, I'm glad you're saying that too, because I think that the people who do have it easy, like you, feel like they're not allowed to say that because there's always somebody to go. Well, how nice for you, because this is what happened to me. And then you're like oh, like, okay, like. So I think sometimes we don't hear the good stories, which is sad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was like, produced a lot of milk, it's. I never even used a pump.
Speaker 2:Oh, everyone hates you right now and fill a 14 ounce bottle and be like yeah, crazy. Wow yeah. I was an overproducer, I get it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, did so. Okay, so you, you realize there was a problem and and then you decided I'm changing my career. What then happened and what have you created out of this? And I guess, talk a little bit about what that looks like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's evolved for sure.
Speaker 2:So, um, what? So? How it kind of started was I didn't have any friends who had children yet. So I had just turned 30 and, um, yeah, just didn't know, I don't have like siblings or anything.
Speaker 2:So, uh, out, I tried on some different mom's groups for size, not a good fit, um. So then I started my own mom's group, which was basically just I would go to like baby and me story time at my local library and I would see another mom there who seemed receptive and I was like, hey, cute baby carrier, what's your name? Like be my friend. And so then we would just like meet up once a week at the class, you know, or then, if it was nice out, we'd go to a park and then there'd be another mom there and we're like, hey, should we include her in our little circle? And pretty soon we had 10 moms. And then you know, like a thousand moms and then like 3,000 moms. So, um, it was really kind of crazy how it took off where moms were like, yeah, no, I want like a moms group where everybody is doing what they're doing and it's chill and no pressure, right, and it was obviously missing. And I live in a really huge metropolitan area. So, yeah, it was all about that for me, where I kind of I became involved in La Leche League and became a leader, and then I thought, yeah, I like this, this is what I want to do. So I got my board certification.
Speaker 2:Immediately when I was certified, my second child was just born. But I started my practice right away and just like thought, you know, I'm not trying to be busy, I just had a second baby, but here and there, if I can help somebody kind of get my feet wet on my own, I'll do it. And so, before I knew it, I got super busy and I opened an actual office location instead of doing home visits within like a year and expanded that. And then I don't even know, it's like a blur right. So I just start speaking at conferences and teaching for a midwifery school, and so then I would get virtual clients from all around, and by the time COVID hit I was doing about half telehealth and half in-person work.
Speaker 2:But right before COVID hit I was in a serious car accident that left me with a spine injury. So I wasn't able to practice in person anymore, which kind of worked out, because people were expecting telehealth with COVID, but even just being able to sit and do appointments was not really an option. So I pushed for too long, but eventually I had to give that up. So now I kind of went back to the whole mom's group concept. So that's really what I've been leaning back into, and I haven't, like, really shared a ton about it online. That's not because I don't want to, it's just because I get really tired of doing social media instead of what I love. So you might be able to feel my pain. But yeah, basically we have an awesome online community that I run, very similarly to how I ran my mom's group, and it's amazing and, um, we have courses in there and all that kind of stuff. And then I also have supplements for lactation, so for, like, milk supply and clogged ducks.
Speaker 3:Okay, great Awesome.
Speaker 2:And a podcast. Yeah, and a podcast that I haven't done in a pair of tree.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so what are the things that you I mean, now you've entered into the world of surrogacy, it sounds like and helping women who are trying to promote milk coming in and being able to supply and send that to the intended parents and then intended parents who are trying to start lactation. What does that look like? What are those tools and resources that you have put in place for these intended parents and surrogates?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, so full disclosure. I have never directly helped a surrogate parent, but I've helped parents who are adopting babies and so you know obviously very similar, right? So they've maybe you know some of them have previously had children, some of them have never been pregnant, so all kinds of different circumstances. And there's not, I would say there's a real lack of up-to-date information on protocols and ways to help these families. But there's also just not a lot out there in terms of, you know, the research that I would want to have access to as a provider.
Speaker 2:So most of my clients don't want to go the route of using any sort of medications, which I understand. So then it becomes harder, but I love their passion and their drive to. It's always twofold, right. They're like, okay, breast milk is so beneficial, I really want to be able to give this to this baby, but then it's also they really just want to nurse the baby at the breast.
Speaker 2:So I really have yet to work with a family or a client that's, like you know, going to be devastated if they never make a full milk supply. They're like, if I could just do like half, you know, like that would be awesome and I just want to have that experience of nursing the baby. And then I've worked with moms who, well, I yeah, I did work with a mom who was a surrogate actually I did have one, but she wasn't. The family didn't want the milk that she was pumping Oddly enough, some families feel weird about that, you know but so she was like, well, I'm going to donate anyway. And so she donated to a ton of babies that really needed it and that was a really cool experience to help support her and keeping her oversupply so she could donate, yeah.
Speaker 3:What are those tips and tricks that you recommend when they're like my milk's not coming in? And here's what you know. What do you?
Speaker 1:recommend when you're pumping exclusively. I know it's a different challenge than when you're actually have a baby to nurse.
Speaker 2:It certainly can be. The number one thing is to remove milk early and often. It certainly can be. The number one thing is to remove milk early and often. So if you've just given birth, the ideal window of time is within the first hour after birth. Really, we've studied this, it's 80 minutes. But if you tell someone 80 minutes then they're like oh, I have an hour and a half and it's not exact. So I say an hour and generally that's going to be best done with hand expression. So people have really latched on to see what I did there.
Speaker 2:The pump culture I love me a good breast pump, but I think there is such an over-reliance on it that it's so heartbreaking when, like a mom just gave birth that day or something just gave birth that day or something, she puts the pump on and she's like I'm not getting anything, I have no milk. And you're like what are you talking about? Like, has no one educated you? Of course they haven't, but it's one. Very hard to get the initial colostrum milk with a breast pump. It's thicker, it's more viscous, it's sticky, so it's also very small amounts. Whatever you do get will be drops that will be stuck in the flanges of the pump so you've completely wasted it, which is awful. So hand expression and that hand stimulation, the softness and warmth of your hand, is more like a baby's mouth, so it's a much better replacement in the early days.
Speaker 2:Now, if you're pumping eight times a day, you can't. You could do it with your hands. I don't recommend it. You're going to have carpal tunnel like really bad. So but, yeah, got it. You have to be consistent. It has to be something that you're really committed to, especially in the early days. So that means you know every two to three hours removing milk, and you know staying hydrated, resting, making sure you're eating enough all difficult things to do when there's just been a birth or a baby. So you know having to have that support around you to enable that. That if this is something that you want to do, you unfortunately have to make sure that you've lined up all the supports and systems around you to enable that, because generally they don't think of that and they don't know to think of those things. So yeah, that's key.
Speaker 2:You know there's so many other things that people want to throw into the mix, like supplements which I make and sell. Those are a great adjunct if you're already doing all the right things, but they are not a replacement for doing the right things. It's really as simple as you have to be consistent about removing milk and doing it well, doing it efficiently, doing it correctly. So many people think they can just hook up a pump, but they don't realize that having the right size flange matters. Your settings that you use in terms of how frequently the pump pumps, the suction level of the pump all of those things are adjustable and all of those things matter and they will probably change throughout your pumping session. In terms of those settings on the pump, the length of time you pump, all of that matters. And so I think we're really undereducated when it comes to that. People go I got the pump from insurance, I'm good to go, and you're like most moms, don't read the manual. So just even that alone, right? They're like what does this?
Speaker 1:button do You're just twisting the knob and you're like I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're like I'll figure it out right and you will, but it might be better if you didn't have to DIY it and spend a week trying to dial it in. You could just, you know, get some expert advice right off the bat. So I think it's really you have to have the right foundation of knowledge, which a lactation consultant is going to be a great resource, or the right course or book, and then you have to just be really dedicated to that milk removal. There's nothing that truly replaces that.
Speaker 3:I've even had some surrogates, which I'd love your insight on, where they've started pumping prior to delivery for just to start that, and they've actually been successful in that. What does that look like? Because I know, I guess for me I was like I didn't even know that was a thing.
Speaker 2:I, yeah, I, everyone's different, so I don't want to discourage anyone from pumping, um, but I would say pumping during pregnancy is more of a tool that's going to stimulate labor than get you a lot of colostrum. Because, again, colostrum is thicker, it's sticky, it's viscous, it tends to get wasted in the pump parts um it's, you're not going to be pumping like two ounces of that.
Speaker 2:That's not how that works, um. And so hand expression during pregnancy is great, because one, it shouldn't um trigger any sort of strong uterine contractions Although if you are trying to get yourself in a labor, hook up the pump. But hand expression is really a great tool, and what we typically recommend are getting some small syringes, like 10 milliliter, like plastic syringes. You can order them on Amazon. You know, make sure they're medical grade and sterile. But you can actually just, you know, kind of take the plunger out, hold that directly under your nipple, keep the cap on the tip and express right into that because it's not going to go spraying, it's colostrum, it's going to be a drop here, drop there. It's not going to be flowing necessarily, and then it's really really easy to freeze those until you know use whenever baby's born. And so those are fantastic tools because the colostrum doesn't need to leave the syringe to give it to the baby. It's like it doesn't have to go into a bottle. You can syringe feed a baby. So it's like you don't have to keep moving that fluid around and then losing it. So that's a great strategy have to keep moving that fluid around and then losing it, so that's a great strategy.
Speaker 2:I would also say, though, that it can be very difficult to get that process started. So typically, colostrum production begins between 16 and 24 weeks of pregnancy. That doesn't mean that it's easy to get, especially if you've never lactated before, or especially if you're just not real familiar with your breast anatomy. Um, so, most women aren't. You know we should be doing breast cancer self-exams, but you know, let's be honest, most of us aren't. So do those, by the way, right now everybody listening go and do one.
Speaker 2:Um, just do it while you're listening Um.
Speaker 2:I know I was tempted to start, yeah just feel on, feel on Whenever somebody starts talking about Kegels, I'm like oh yeah, get it, do your Kegels and do a breast self-exam and then you're going to have to go have like a quiet moment to yourself, probably Going camera off. Yeah, camera off. So anyways, back to the topic. But yeah, it can take a while. It's not going to be like sometimes you're leaking colostrum anyway and you're like, oh cool, how much colostrum you're able to get during pregnancy is not an indicator of how much milk you will make once the baby's born. So I want to be really clear about that. So if anybody's discouraged like I've been doing this for a week. I've been trying two times a day and I haven't gotten anything that's okay, that's actually normal and don't worry about it. So I don't want anybody to stress because then that just creates all that self-doubt of like what your body's capable of. And it's totally normal if you never get any colostrum during pregnancy. It's there. It's just not easy to get to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and if a surrogate, for instance, she's deciding I'm going to do this and maybe starts a few weeks before her due date and she's successful in this. I know sometimes if somebody, after they've delivered, it takes a few days for their milk to come in. But if they start that ahead of time is it more likely that their milk will come in and kind of be more flowing from the moment that they deliver.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is. Actually, we do have studies to back that up. So it's a great way to encourage that milk transitioning. And also, there is still this idea that I want to clarify for people that if they remove the colostrum during pregnancy, they think they're taking it away from what's available for the baby once they're born. That is not how colostrum, which is actually breast milk, it's just a different type, a different form. Right, so it's not separate. But it doesn't work that way. The more you remove, the more you make. Now, pregnancy hormones obviously limit that. So I don't want anybody to be like, why remove the colostrum and now there's nothing for the baby. I'm like, no, no, there's actually going to be more. So it typically makes you know that pumping or if nursing is going to happen much easier and then, instead of like maybe three days postpartum, the milk transitioning and now you have all this milk, it could be two days, it could be one and a half days, and that's really cool.
Speaker 3:That's amazing. I just learned something new.
Speaker 2:Yay, I aim to please. I love that.
Speaker 1:I am curious, for you mentioned that those who are trying to induce lactation. My intended mother for my surrogacy journeys. She had a baby on her own and she was pretty young and she was going to try to maintain breastfeeding so that she could nurse the baby that I delivered. But of course baby was and her daughter wasn't cooperating and decided she didn't want to breastfeed anymore. So she was having a hard time. She did induce lactation and she was taking medications, supplements for it that I can't remember what it was called, but she had to, like, order it from Canada and it wasn't FDA approved and it was like a whole. It was a whole ordeal for her. Yeah, um, you said that there are ways to do it without taking any medications. Oh, do you recommend doing the medications or what is the process for inducing lactation?
Speaker 2:Good question. I don't. I don't recommend anything Um cause. It's really an individual choice and it just it's going to depend on a lot of factors, first and foremost your health history, right. So the the most effective way to induce lactation is using something like the Newman Goldfarb protocol, which has not been updated and I don't think that it's perfect, but it's essentially taking a specific type of birth control several months ahead of the time that you were expecting to be able to produce milk, and then stopping that and then starting Domperidone, which is the medication that you were referring to.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's what she was.
Speaker 2:You can get it prescribed in the US off-label. Most doctors aren't willing to do that. They're definitely not going to do it for inducing lactation, so it's generally ordered through an overseas pharmacy. There's risks with all of those medications, right? A lot of people don't feel comfortable doing that. But you know, lactation is hormones, so if you're not doing something to change the hormones it just becomes harder. You can do there's kind of three protocols, right. All of them involve pumping. So no matter what, you have to pump because otherwise don't do any of it. But you can do the medication route. You can do medication and herbs. You can do herbs or you can do just pumping. So the most successful is medication, the second is going to be herbs and then the least is going to be pumping. It's not to say that you won't do well if you decide to only pump. You can do well, but you will be much further from a full milk supply if you go that route.
Speaker 2:Herbs can be beneficial, but I feel like there's a lack of knowledge on the part of the majority of providers. Even if you go to an herbalist, even you'd have to go to a midwife or a really knowledgeable lactation consultant to really get the right herbal protocol. Herbs are not benign. They do have side effects. They can interfere with other medications you're taking, so you have to make sure that those are right for you. I never recommend blindly ordering some herbs online, and they're going to vary. People who are inducing lactation might need different herbs than somebody who is already lactating and trying to increase their milk supply. So I really it's up to it's up to you know, someone's personal comfort level or how much time do they have before baby arrives? Um, so if you have more time, you can take your time. If you have less time, maybe you want to try and do this faster and medication can be helpful.
Speaker 1:Do you know how those medications work? What is um Domperidone and how like what? What even is it and how does it function?
Speaker 2:So Domperidone is actually a medicine for gastrointestinal issues. The major concern of side effects is that it prolongs the QT interval. So if you have any cardiac issues or you're looking to avoid them, that's probably the worst side effect there is. I know there are a lot of people out there that say you'd have to take it at really high doses or it doesn't affect most people. That's true, but you could be the one right. Like you know, I've seen anecdotally, you know in clinical practice, that it can cause some people to put on weight, it can cause issues with their thyroid. So those are some nasty side effects.
Speaker 2:But there seems to be some correlation between the rate of the mother's gastric emptying and how much milk she makes. That's not a hundred percent, but there are certain herbs that help with that and they also help with lactation certain herbs that help with that and they also help with lactation. I've even seen moms who will start taking probiotics and they get better gut health and they make more milk. So we have a lot of mysteries that no one's really invested in doing the research on, but it's a common thing that we see amongst our clients as lactation consultants. So there's another medication called oh my gosh, I can't remember it off the top of my head.
Speaker 2:You can get it prescribed in the US Again. If it's an inducing lactation situation. It's going to be really rare that would happen. But it has a black box warning on it because it is known for causing suicidal thoughts, not something I usually recommend to people who have just had babies, whether you've birthed them or not, and also it typically only works for a week or two and then you should stop it anyway. But sometimes when you stop it, then you go back to where you were before and you don't maintain milk production, so you don't have a lot of great options, unfortunately, when it comes to medications.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, no, it doesn't sound like it. It sounds like it's all I'd like. It's hard to imagine any of it's worth it, but I mean dom paradone for the right person could totally be worth it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, do you have any success stories?
Speaker 2:you can share. Not many, okay, I do have a couple. Yeah, outside the US, it's called Motillum. So if people are wondering if it's the same thing, only a couple, and it was some. You know they were clients who were already taking it. You know they got it from Canada, mexico, vietnam, wherever, and they were like, yeah, this has really helped, but then they had clogged ducts. Or you know, yeah, this has really helped, um, but then they had clogged ducts. Or you know something, some reason why they needed to see me, um, but yeah, they, you know, I mean, they were very happy with it and they felt comfortable with it and they didn't feel like the side effects were terrible or anything like that. Um, usually the issue that they encountered was is it possible to wean off of this? Can I do that while I'm still lactating? And they had those kinds of questions, but most of the time I'd. You know it would be a you know, a birthing parent, right, they've given birth, for whatever reason. If it's, they initially had a good milk supply and now that's three months and they don't. Or they never had a good milk supply or they never had a good milk supply.
Speaker 2:Domperidone will only really truly work if you are deficient in your prolactin levels. So prolactin is the main hormone that drives breast milk production. If you have sufficient prolactin, which you can get checked with some blood work very easily, then Domperidone is not going to help you. So it is much more effective in situations of inducing lactation, because of course you don't have prolactin right, you wouldn't, you didn't just give birth. So that makes sense. So it can help raise those levels. And I would say, if you're looking to go medication route, inducing lactation Domperidone could be very helpful, but if you've already given birth it's less.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, okay. What are the takeaways? What are the big things that you feel like for women who are having a struggle in producing more? I mean, you have your supplements that you offer, but what are some of the things that they should be hitting in considering? I need to do this, this, this and this, to try all these routes and see if my milk is increased.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, I would say first and foremost would be to really get a handle on having gratitude for how much milk you do make and if you are nursing your baby, understanding that breastfeeding is so much more than breast milk, and even if you are just pumping, that is a huge act of love that you are doing for your baby and only you can decide whether or not it's worth it. But every little bit is worth it. Even a couple of ounces a day still makes a significant difference in the health of your baby. So I don't want people to get all hung up on oh my gosh, I should be pumping four ounces at a time. Why don't I have a freezer stash? Like this person on my Instagram Like please don't do that to yourself. Not everyone's an oversupplier, like sunshine. So so, first and foremost, I think, just try to get your mindset in the right place, because you're going to spin your wheels, trying all the things. Do not run out and buy anything that says lactation on it. I cannot tell you how many clients they go to Target and they're like it says lactation in the cart and I'm like you bought like lactation cookies, lactation Cheez-Its, lactation pills, lactation drinks, like maybe those are effective, but if you do them all at once, you're never going to know. But you maybe haven't done the basics. So the basics are stay hydrated, and that might mean adding electrolytes that could make a massive difference in your milk production. I'm not talking smart water either. I'm talking like liquid iv powder or whatever brand. Or gatorade, uh, it doesn't matter the color. I don't know where this came from, but some people think blue gatorade or body armor specifically. It does not matter, folks, just like a solid electrolyte drink. It doesn't matter. Um, pedialyte, yeah, pedialyte actually be great. Yeah, people get really hung up on coconut water. If that works for you, great, but I would actually recommend something with the proper amounts of electrolytes.
Speaker 2:Um, but eating the right foods and I wouldn't get all like crazy and obsessive about it. It's just you need to eat more. Like the composition of breast milk. Breast Breast milk is mostly carbs, so if you're trying to cut carbs and lose some weight, it's not a good time. If you want to be making milk, maybe you can, but, yeah, not necessarily. Eating more protein can help increase the amount of fat in your milk, so making sure you're not restricting protein. You don't need to eat more fat when you're breastfeeding. So carbsricting protein. You don't need to eat more fat when you're breastfeeding, so carbs and protein. But yeah, those things making sure that.
Speaker 2:I know it could be hard to get enough sleep right, but it doesn't have to necessarily be sleep, it can also be rest If you're running yourself ragged and you're trying to do all the things and you know it's a lot right. So take that time to rest. When you're pumping, rest when you're holding the baby, rest Like those are those times for you too, so you can't just be serving your baby or the pump or whatever all the time. So those things are really important. And then making sure you have a good pump. You know like your pump has to have adequate suction for one. So if you bought what I like to call the China cheapies, they may not be what you need. Some of them are great, some of them are not.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go on here and recommend brands, because I don't like that, but I would say there are. You know you can read reviews, but if something has tens of thousands of reviews that are very good, it's probably a good choice. I'll just leave it at that. But, yeah, make sure you have the right size flange. That is huge for how much milk you will get, and breast milk removal is about not just suction but also stimulation of the breast. So if the flange is too big and your nipple is just getting pulled into it and stretched and swollen, you're not hitting the right place on the milk ducts. You might be hindering milk coming out of the breast, you could be experiencing pain, all of those sorts of things.
Speaker 2:If you're not sure, meet with a lactation consultant. You can try and buy a nipple ruler and figure out your size, things like that. So I would say cover all of those basics before you go and buy specialized products, because the saddest thing for me is like people are going to buy my products, whether or not I know them or would recommend them to them, and then they're like didn't work for me and I'm like well, I have questions Like do you pump? Like what else have you tried? Do you drink enough water? Like and I'm not saying it's- their fault.
Speaker 2:It will not work for everybody either, so there's that right. But I just go oh, that sucks like. I made this for people. I really want to help them, but it just still won't help everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah so yeah, I don't want to discourage anyone, but be realistic and we, when you talked about your struggling with breastfeeding early on, that you were having pain and you were having bruising and scabbing and things. What was that a result of? And was it a latching issue or what was the issue? That you weren't getting the help, even though you were going to professionals that you give to women.
Speaker 2:This is part two of the podcast. That was because my son had a tongue tie and a lip tie that I did not find out about until later on. I had never even heard the term tongue tie until he was nine months old, and that was only because I was involved with La Leche League. I probably would have never heard it otherwise. And then when he was a toddler, he was almost two and he had cavities on his upper teeth, like right where the teeth meet the gums, and the dentist identified a lip tie and she was like that is holding food and milk or whatever against his teeth and causing cavities.
Speaker 2:So, even though I'm, like you know, brushing or whatever, he was still nursing. So I made it pretty far with him. So if he'd nurse at night, like I'm not brushing his teeth and it was just sitting there causing cavities, um, I asked if he had a tongue tie. She said no, that's a long story, um, we revisited that when he was three years old and, yes, he did have a tongue tie. So that was why, um, but getting his lip tie released at 21 months old, I was still nursing him. I wasn't in pain at that point, you know, the pain was maybe the first couple of months of nursing him, but I and he latched right afterwards and I had never experienced breastfeeding feeling comfortable until that moment.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:It was nuts Like. I was like, oh my God, that's what's supposed to feel. Like I had no idea like at all and I was like it wasn't I. If you had asked me, I would not have said it was painful, I would not have said it was uncomfortable, but I was like, oh, that feels kind of nice, okay. So yeah, I think a lot of moms experienced that and that was really that's kind of been my area of focus as a lactation consultant, but it's a whole other can of worms.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hear that a lot lately with the tongue tie and the lip tie with babies and I guess that was something maybe that they just weren't paying attention to in the past.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think really not enough knowledge around it or not. An understanding of tongue tie does not mean that the tie goes all the way to the tip of the tongue, that there are different grades of tongue tie. It's about tongue elevation, not about the tip of the tongue and so the mechanics of breastfeeding. It's not even really about the latch. If the baby can't get a good latch, it's probably nothing the mom is doing wrong. Certainly she can do things to help enable a good latch, but if the baby's oral anatomy is restricted we're only going to get so far.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then I have had a few surrogates who have clogged milk ducts and that's been so serious where they've had to have antibiotics and being super painful. What are, what are some of the solutions recommendations you have for, either a eliminating, that from happening at all? Or if it does happen, what are those next steps they're supposed to be taking?
Speaker 2:Yeah, good question. So when it comes to prevention, making sure that you're not wearing a bra or clothing that is too restrictive. So your breast tissue, you know it's deep in the breast. Well, your milk ducts are more close to the surface, right, but you've got fatty tissue in there and then you've got muscle behind that, but then it's all connected to your lymph system. So if you're inhibiting, like you know, good drainage and flow, you can be more prone to getting clogs, if you have had antibiotics that can make you more prone to mastitis.
Speaker 2:So there's a spectrum. It starts with a clogged duct, typically, and then that clog isn't resolved and that turns into inflammatory mastitis and then it can then evolve into infectious mastitis. So getting infectious mastitis alone is really really rare, because that would mean there'd have to be damage to the breast tissue. That involves lactation, where some outside bacteria was introduced. Typically there's bacteria in our body, good and bad, that we're just colonized with, and so that stagnation of the milk, that bacteria is allowed to sort of grow and replicate and then create an infection. So that's why antibiotics can be helpful and you need them, take them. I have way too many people who are really resistant to taking antibiotics. Ibuprofen is your friend. These things are super duper painful.
Speaker 2:The other thing that you don't want to do, well, one, stay hydrated, rest. The number of times that I have seen clogged dextrometastitis happen because someone's doing too much, it's more than I could count. That is mostly the cause of it. Your body's not ready. Making milk is burning a ton of calories all day long. Chill out, it's going to be okay. The laundry will still be there. You can do it later. You know what I mean. It's just I know we all have to do the laundry, but you know, um, so those are, those are big ones. Um, avoid any kind of firm massage.
Speaker 2:There is this idea that you're, you know, I moms are like, yeah, I'm like just like needing it and like digging in there and I'm like how's that going for you? And they're like it hurts and I'm like, yeah, like it's already inflamed. Don't do that. It's angry now. But you know you kind of you'll feel the clog usually it's not a mystery and there may be a red spot on your breast. You want to massage between the clog and your nipple. So don't come from behind the clog. You are not going to push that sucker through your milk duct. That's not how it works, but just gentle, gentle massage.
Speaker 2:You can do ice, you can do heat. There's debate about this in the medical community, but any doctor who has ever worked with a chronic pain patient will tell you that it's whatever feels good for you. A vascular surgeon and your veins and arteries in your bodies are a lot like milk ducks will tell you to apply heat because you want to dilate that opening right so that that clog can move through. Somebody who treats joint pain is going to tell you to do ice. So it's like whatever one feels good for you is probably the one you do. And then just you know, give it time. Clogged ducts do not resolve right away. So if you're staying the same or starting to feel better, anticipate a few days before it's fully healed. If you're getting worse, you feel flu-like symptoms, go to urgent care or call your doctor right away.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Okay, I have one more, Please. This is a big one If the surrogate we've had in the past where she is like certain she is not pumping and she's like I'm not going to induce lactation because I want my milk to dry up quickly. So she wraps those bad boys up, she puts her sports bra on, maybe two or three, and she is in pain for a week or more. I've just recently experienced this. I know there's things you can take that will help dry up the milk, but she walked away feeling like that was the worst. I almost wish I would have just allowed myself to pump a little bit and slowly come off of this, and that was what I had originally kind of suggested, but I also'm not the professional in this. So what do you recommend when a surrogate says I don't want my milk to come in and I want this to go away as quickly as possible?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'd probably go the route that you did, casey, um, but not, it's not that black or white like I understand, right, I totally get it. You're like I am done with this, I'm moving on. No thanks, um. So that makes sense, right? But, um, there's a couple things. If they know that that is the case, you know, before birth there is an injection that they can ask for in the hospital, but you'd want to have that conversation ahead of time. That can help. That is probably the biggest help ever, but you're going to need to plan to get that right after you give birth. And then, no tight binding of the breasts.
Speaker 2:This is where people really go wrong and make the situation worse. Wear two sports bras that fit you layered so have some firm compression, but you are not trying to stifle everything because you're going to give yourself a clogged duct. You're going to give yourself mastitis that is awful. You're going to give yourself an abscess, like, please, don't do that, because the way this works is in people who don't have problems lactating, right? So the placenta is birthed, your progesterone levels drop like a rock and it allows your prolactin levels to rise. That is inevitable. That is going to happen, whether or not. You want it to happen.
Speaker 2:So the milk will come in, whether you like it or not. Unless you get this injection, it'll still come in, but it'll be a lot, lot, lot, lot less. So you just kind of have to deal with it, right? I would recommend removing as much milk as needed to remain comfortable and then stopping at that point. You're not trying to encourage milk production, so the more milk you remove, the more you're going to make. So waiting as long as possible. But you're like oh man, my breasts are really hard and full Hand expression. Even a hand pump is going to be a bit gentler of an option. You can do an electric pump on a low setting for however many minutes it takes to feel some relief, like, okay, there's a little bit of softness now I'm good to go. That is going to help the milk dry up.
Speaker 2:It's going to take a week or two yeah so it's not going to be like by day five. I'm done, I'm in the clear you can't stop it.
Speaker 1:That's it. I remember my first surrogacy um, I wanted to suppress, that I didn't want to pump, and um, because I knew when I was breastfeeding my own. I had so much and it was took to make it go away, so I was like I just don't even want to get it started. But I did that, but binding and cabbage leaves and.
Speaker 1:Sudafed and all of that. It was so painful, it was the most painful thing. It was like five days of excruciating pain and it was the worst part of my whole surrogacy journey was dealing with the milk afterwards. And I remember when I did my next journey I was like I'm not doing that again and so I decided to pump. And I pumped and I realized it is a lot easier to let it come in, start and then taper it back. Yeah, and it actually felt a lot better. So I feel like that's what I would encourage any surrogates to do. Um, having done both, I think letting it come in was really beneficial and it was easy to to taper it back once it came in, but it was not easy to try to stop.
Speaker 3:I know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:At all.
Speaker 2:And I would say, like, what's important to think about in that regard and and it's awesome that you had experience with both is like it. So if you want to dry it up, let the milk come in. You got a good two or three days where you don't have to do anything so you can just coast. That's great, awesome. How much more can you heal from the birth? Now, right when it comes in, be ready for it. Rightbage leaves only work, not because there's something special about cabbage, it's because they're cold and brush-shaped, so like you don't have to buy cabbage people, just so you know. But they do feel really nice and you can easily put them in your bra, right. So there's that. But yeah, take it easy on yourself. Take the ibuprofen. Sudafed will help.
Speaker 2:Certain allergy medicines will help, like Benadryl, but then they make you sleepy. So you know there are things mint, drink a ton of mint tea, yeah, mint tea, oil of oregano sage, like those herbs will dry you up pretty quick so you can go a natural route there. And then if you're weaning, if you are seizing lactation, within those first couple weeks postpartum, it happens real fast, like if you're going to pump for like four months, let's say or something and then decide to stop. You'll wean, you know, relatively quickly, but it's going to be a few weeks. It's like to do it rapidly. So the longer you lactate, the longer it takes to stop lactating. So if you're going to do it the first couple weeks, it's pretty quick. So hopefully people are like okay, I just ride this out for a couple of weeks, get a minimal amount of milk out, I can donate that or give it to the family, whatever right, and then you'll be done pretty quickly and a lot less painfully.
Speaker 3:And you're saying there's a shot that the doctor can do. I begged for medicine from my doctor to prevent it because I knew I wasn't going to.
Speaker 1:And what is it called? No, there's nothing.
Speaker 2:Uh, I don't want to get this wrong because my brain works funny. I'm going to look it up really quick.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm just like what yeah, cabergoline, I think is how you say it Um C-A-B-E-R-G-O-L-I-N-E? R go l I n? E and that treats high levels of prolactin. So, like people have pituitary tumors that cause them to make too much prolactin, so it's a medication for that. So again, this would be have to be pre-arranged. You speak to your provider. They know what this is, they know that it can be used for lactation and they have it for you got it, yeah, okay, um, that's really good to know and I wish I would have known it it's a lifesaver for anybody who does not want to breastfeed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, pills, and there are some take and then they said it was outlawed because it was like really dangerous or something yeah that's what my doctor told me when I asked them for a medication. I was like your doctor is correct, so cabergoline would be the safest medicated option yeah, okay, good to know for next time, which there will never be a next time for me for all of the women that we have somebody else can benefit from this knowledge yes, oh my gosh, no, someone's listening right now like, oh my goodness, this is awesome.
Speaker 2:I'm writing all this down c-a-b-e-r-g-o-l-i-n yes you know, it's funny because, like I read these, like things in textbooks and studies, right, and I'm like, but I've never heard the word said out loud. So is it cabergoline? Is it caberjoline? I don't know, you know, but just look it up. Shot that makes milk go away.
Speaker 1:Put that in Google and yeah, very helpful, very helpful to know, and I think, um, I think I I'm curious too. There's so many different theories on how long someone should breastfeed, how, how, like? What are the benefits? What is the average Like? What's the ideal? Because it's a huge commitment Breastfeeding, pumping is you're the only one then who can feed your baby, unless you pump, and then you have, you know, bottles, but then you still have to pump if you're not feeding, and so it's a whole thing and it lasts for so long and it's very draining, I think, for women who are mothers and need help from their partner or they have to go back to work. What do you think is the ideal like? If you can do anything, do this I know you kind of have. It seems like you're like whatever you can do is good enough, type of thing. But I guess, what is the, the golden number?
Speaker 2:if there is, I, oh, yeah, um, okay, I'll start with this. So the World Health Organization for a really long time. That I would say, is the gold standard when it comes to this, because they are thinking about the global population, right. So that is all of humanity as we know it, as opposed to something US-centered or European-centered or what have you. They've had the recommendation to breastfeed for a minimum of two years and then keep going as long as it's working for both you and your child. That is an absolutely scientifically based best practice. That's the starting point.
Speaker 2:Two years ago, I think it was, the American Academy of Pediatrics changed their recommendation to match the World Health Organization's, because previously they recommended one year and beyond. So everybody gets a number stuck in their head, they forget the and beyond part and they go one year, two years, oh, two years, that sounds like so much pressure I'm like. Well, the two-year-old doesn't nurse as frequently as the two-month-old and if you're pumping you can absolutely stop at a year. There's sure there is, there is still benefits to providing breast milk, but milk becomes, you know, about half of your child's daily diet at that point. So whether it's cow's milk or breast milk, so it's just you know, most people will decide to stop pumping sometime after the first year, if they do go that long. So, that being said, yes, I'm a realist because we don't live. We live in a capitalistic society where, if you want to create an environment where breastfeeding long term is possible for you, it's either going to be possible because you have an extensive support network around you or you're really like a tough ass MF, or you have a lot of money and you can afford people to do these things around you to support you.
Speaker 2:So it's just not easy. It does take a lot out of you, even if you have support. The commitment to breastfeed is a lot of hours a week, right. So, like you're the baby in an ideal scenario, right is going to breastfeed exclusively for six months. Then solid foods are introduced. You don't reduce breastfeeding, you're just adding in solid foods. Then, around a year, you're reducing the amount of breastfeeding and increasing the foods, and that continues.
Speaker 2:So you know what's possible for everybody. What do they want to do? I think it's really important to get clear on your goals and understand why you want to breastfeed, because if you don't have your why, when challenges come up, it's really easy to throw in the towel and challenges will come up, even if it comes easily to you. You're gonna be like man I just wish I could sleep longer. I'm making tons of milk and he's growing great, but, like you know, I just want some sleep around here. So you know, just be really clear on, like, your goals. It's okay to change them over time and all of that, but yeah, those are the recommendations.
Speaker 3:I was like I want my body back. No, we're done. And she was almost two. And my husband's like I want you back too. I'm like, okay, stop.
Speaker 2:Yup, well, you know how like, like puppies, right, they're like nursing their puppies or dogs, sorry, dogs are nursing the puppies and, uh, you know, they're like at whatever you know, eight weeks mark, 10 weeks, 12 weeks, somewhere in there, and they're like actually batting them away with their paw, like get away from me. When that kicks in, those are your hormones telling you it's time to stop. It happens a lot earlier for dogs than humans. So if you are feeling like what we would call a nursing aversion, right, then that is your body saying this is too much and I cannot support this child with my milk anymore. And that's a really good thing to listen to.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so too. I think it's so important, for we always want to sacrifice our selves and what we need and try to do more for others. It's the same thing when you're talking about like like doing too much.
Speaker 1:I remember being newly postpartum my very first baby and just wanting to like vacuum and do the dishes and clean and do laundry, like and run around and do stuff, and I just was bored too. I didn't want to just sit and be with my baby and do nothing, like I felt so useless and we're just not used to not being productive and so being productive is like my sense of self-worth is how productive I am and I'm. That's something that I'm working on. We'll talk about that.
Speaker 2:You are not alone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I think, um, it's important to listen to your body and and be okay with it. Everybody has a different limit and everybody's capable of giving only so much, and if you push that, you will pay for it, like in one way or another.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you really will. I all ever, all those type A's out there. I've been there. I know, don't do it, don't do it Listen there's a little voice.
Speaker 3:It's like the angel and the devil right.
Speaker 2:And the angel's like you should slow down. And the devil's like F that you got. The devil's like f that you got this, and then you're like yeah, what he said right, like no, don't do that.
Speaker 1:The devil's like. You should do more. You're so worthless that's that. That's the worst version, or?
Speaker 2:or you do sit down, take a break. You lazy, get up like yeah, that's terrible yeah, making milk is a lot. Um, it is a big caloric demand on your body If you are also caring for a baby at the same time. That is a lot mentally, emotionally and physically, and that mental, emotional stuff counts for a lot and I don't think we give it enough credit.
Speaker 1:That burns calories too.
Speaker 1:I remember being so surprised when I did decide to pump after my second journey how much quicker I lost weight, because I wasn't. I mean, when I was breastfeeding and I was nursing a baby, I was sitting for so many hours every day and I was completely sedentary and I couldn't move, like my baby wanted a nurse for like three hours straight, so it was like it was terrible. But pumping you sit down, you do your 30 minutes, you're done, you go back to whatever you were doing. And it was so cool that it would burn like 600 calories an hour or whatever. And I was like this is awesome, I lost weight so much faster as a surrogate.
Speaker 1:Pumping was so cool, so I highly encourage it to women who are surrogates. For that reason, even if you just do it for the six weeks that you're out on maternity leave, just to get your body back in shape, I think it's totally worth it.
Speaker 3:Well, it helps with the contracting of your uterus and gets that back into where it needs to be, and I mean there's so many benefits in it.
Speaker 2:Yes, I will add another benefit, and also we have wearable pumps now, so you don't actually have to sit and pump, which is kind of I mean, again, don't overdo it, folks, but like you know, I could work out and pump at the same time. Yeah, that sounds smart, um, sarcasm, nobody got that. But um, the other cool thing is yeah, so it is gonna reduce, um your uh, you know uterine size more quickly. Um, it will hinder, um, you know any kind of you know major bleeding afterwardsine size more quickly. It will hinder, you know any kind of you know major bleeding afterwards. Right, that's really important.
Speaker 2:But the other thing that I think people forget and this kind of goes back to the previous big question you asked is that when you stop lactating and you go and you begin that process of reducing that amount of milk that you're removing, go and you begin that process of reducing that amount of milk that you're removing, you're going through another very big hormonal shift. So I like to recommend doing one at a time, so like if you give birth, your hormones change like that, that's nuts. If you're trying to drive your milk at the same time, that's a lot, and so a lot of people don't expect that. So just that's why I would say to go slow and be really gentle with yourself, because it can feel, you know, even if you're pumping just to donate, right Like it can feel kind of emotional and you can be like why am I so sad all the time? Why am I crying Like, well, yeah, because your hormones are changing. So, yeah, be gentle with yourself.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you, jacqueline. This is so much good information. I'm like we're going to download this and spread it to all of our surrogates that we have that are actively wanting to really understand, if they're.
Speaker 1:There's so much to put in the show notes. We're like what was it Cabergoline? Oh my gosh, I'm so proud of myself for remembering that.
Speaker 1:I feel like you've said it correctly, myself remembering that I feel like you've said it correctly, so I'm gonna use that now she's. I just said it, like you did, I think I don't know, I don't know. And then what else? What else did we the cabbage leaves? I always wondered, like what is it about cabbage and why do I have to walk around smelling like soup all the time, like I just smell like soup but they do feel good for a minute.
Speaker 1:But man, they wilt really quick and so it's like they do switching out those cabbage leaves every 10 seconds anyways, yeah, like that's a lot of soup a good gel ice pack is great.
Speaker 2:In fact, I would recommend they make gel like round gel ice packs. Just you know, amazon this to your house and those are awesome and they will last. Like they'll last too long. You're like, oh my boobs are numb, time to take those off. Like yeah use those.
Speaker 1:I got some that were ice packs or they were like hot or cool so you could put them in the freezer or you could put them in the microwave, so, like when I had a clogged duck, I could put the heating pad and it was the microwave for 30 seconds and then put it on.
Speaker 2:It was really great yeah, yeah, they have like a cut out for the nipple and everything. So, yeah, don't put it on the nipple folks. That's a big one, everyone's, everyone's at home cutting holes in the middle of their cabbage leaves. Now, oh god, okay, that's amazing you guys, this is awesome cover oh man.
Speaker 2:Um, well, I you know I don't know how often it comes up when you know you're working with surrogates but, um, I've seen it happen with adoptive families that the birthing parent has an idea of what they want to do regarding lactation when they're pregnant, and then it can change after they give birth.
Speaker 2:Like I've had some that are like adamant, like I will not be collecting any milk at all for you. No thanks, I'm done, I don't want any reminder of this baby because adoption's different right. And then they give birth and they're like I actually do still want to have like a connection to this baby somehow, and now I want to do that, but they never prepared for it. So I don't know if that's ever common in the surrogacy, you know kind of world, but it's okay, it's okay. Just, you know, try to reach out and get that support. Or if you're like I was totally intending on providing breast milk and now I'm like, yeah, never mind, that's OK, you still need support with going through that process of if you're going to do it or if you're not, and you should be able to get that even if you're a surrogate.
Speaker 1:I think that's so important to point out, because we always have an idea or intentions, but you don't know how your birth or how your labor is going to go. You don't know how and you don't know how drained you're going to be at the end of it. If you have thought I'm going to commit to pumping for six months and then you give birth and you're like I'm done, my family needs me back, I have to go back to work, Like I need to get back to my own life, that's okay. You've done enough. You don't have to pump for any length of time. It's great if you can and if you can't.
Speaker 1:I think it's same with giving birth. I think people have all these expectations of how they want to go and give birth. I want to have an unmedicated birth and I want to have a water birth and I want to, or I want to have a home birth and I want to do all of this. And then something happens and you have to have a C-section and then you have to mourn because you had this plan of how you thought it was going to go and then you didn't meet your expectations and then you're disappointed and then you beat yourself up and we do like women are. Just we're so brutal to ourselves as far as the expectations we put on ourselves and then we let ourselves down and we're it's only ourselves that we're letting it's we're doing it to ourselves.
Speaker 1:But I think it's so important to remember how your birth goes, how your breastfeeding journey is going to go. These are not things that you have control over, and so they're not things that you should blame yourself for or take credit for. Like yeah, I was overproduced and I hand expressed exclusively. And like I for my baby, which was cool, but I understand that. That's not like I'm special. That was dumb luck. It was absolutely dumb luck. So, whatever, you can't beat yourself up if it doesn't go that way for you.
Speaker 2:And something else will right.
Speaker 1:Something else in your life is probably going to come easy and be great. Maybe your kid's going to be awesome teenager.
Speaker 3:Or maybe they won't. But the other thing is with the legal contract, they can sleep through the night.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly With the legal contract, I think. So often the intended parents, the surrogate, go into this knowing that she's a gestational carrier, that she's willing to pump for them Maybe she is or maybe she isn't and that contract might mention that this is something that everybody's going to try to do, but nowhere in that contract is going to tell them, if they don't do this, this is what's going to happen or you have to do this. So this is something for the surrogate to understand is really just going into this, being kind to yourself and understanding if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, that's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, and you know, for, for the parents of the baby, you know being prepared for it to go either way, right, you know you, and you and the surrogate are agreeing like, yeah, if you can provide breast milk and obviously there can be some grief if it's not able to happen, right, so just preparing yourselves to because you know hopefully you've got the baby safe and sound and the surrogate is okay. And like, if the lactation can't happen, you know that's, it was the cherry on top, so yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's lots of alternative sources of breast milk too. Right, if your surrogate can't provide it, do you have? What resources do you recommend?
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's common or not, but some families may not want the surrogate's milk right. So yeah, you can donate or access donor milk. It'll typically be through informal channels unless for some reason, your baby ends up in the NICU. So milk from official licensed milk banks is reserved for those preemie NICU babies that have the real life-saving need to receive breast milk. Outside of that there's not like some extra supply that we can just give to everybody. It's also prohibitively expensive, so insurance will cover it when needed, obviously. So what I would recommend to people is you can, if it's really important to you, you can seek donor milk. Outside of that, it's up to you to decide how you want to screen donors, because it's informal. So if you had a relative who happens to be lactating and you trust them, that's a great source.
Speaker 2:You want to try and get a handle on someone's health history. Are they taking medications? Which ones? Can those affect the baby? Are they taking herbs or vitamins or other supplements? Is their diet something Like? Do they consume alcohol or drugs Like? All of those questions are really smart questions to ask. Some people will screen donors and ask for blood work. The only issue with trying to go so far to get a whole history on a donor is a lot of donors are like look like I'm an oversupplier. I'm doing this out of my heart. I'm not gonna go to the lab like you either want this milk or you don't, because I got other people who want it, which which is understandable. It doesn't mean they're not trustworthy, but you have to kind of go. Is it worth it or not? Right, is breast milk particularly risky?
Speaker 2:No it's not. So you know, take that with a grain of salt. Most importantly, it's like that you know if you are a recipient of donor milk. In those situations it is common courtesy to replace those milk storage bags or whatever containers for the person who's pumping and donating. And then some families will. You know, here's an Uber Eats gift card, right, like that kind of stuff. Or do you need extra pump parts so you're not paying for the milk directly? And I would always always recommend a situation where you're buying breast milk. There's been a number of different investigative things done and it's typically not actually breast milk that you're getting, so just try to avoid that. Moms groups are great. There's an organization called Eats on Feets, there's another one called Human Milk for Human Babies and you can connect with people, know people who need milk.
Speaker 1:People are donating milk on those networks gosh, you just brought up this important layer that I didn't think about, or I try not to think about, as the trust that's involved in accepting donor milk yeah, it's a big one.
Speaker 2:Um it. People who donate breast milk are not trying to harm babies, so they are just like doing this out of the goodness of their heart. They do not have to do this. They don't enjoy pumping. They probably, just like you said, they got lucky and they happen to make a bunch of extra milk and they're like maybe not even wanting to, or maybe they enjoy donating. They're like I love helping families. This is great. So, um, it's usually's usually, yeah, breast milk's precious, like it's not a nefarious thing to give away breast milk.
Speaker 1:I found some in my freezer the other day and I was like, oh my god, how did this make it in my um, like I don't understand, it's crazy how old is it? Years, years.
Speaker 3:That's awesome and she's moved a few times. That's what the question I want to ask.
Speaker 2:Wait what it's funny when you're like 80, you're going to be like and here's my bag of breast milk.
Speaker 1:I kept it for my scrapbook.
Speaker 2:That is actually really cool. You can make like a milk bath with it and yeah, see how that goes.
Speaker 1:I've heard of that. I don't understand it.
Speaker 2:Um, I don't get it, I'm not interested I don't blame you because it's actually really sticky. So yeah, I don't know why people do it so sticky.
Speaker 3:I heard it helps um, newborn babies with their little baby acne if you put a little bit of the breast milk on it. No, okay, see, these are things I can't imagine why it would it's really sugary and sticky and it's going to clog their pores.
Speaker 2:Interesting, I know it can heal wounds really well. Okay, maybe that's eczema it can be helpful. It could be irritating, it depends. But the baby acne thing yeah, that's a placebo. Okay, got it, just saying it's full of sugar folks.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, of course, right can water your, but the baby acne thing, that's a placebo. Okay, got it Awesome.
Speaker 2:Just saying it's full of sugar folks.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean of course right. Yes, you can water your plants with it.
Speaker 2:Actually, I know somebody who was a lactation consultant, who was really into gardening, and she experimented with that and her plants did really well. Oh, okay, like once a week, like an ounce or something, and she would like take it around all of her plants and like fertilize them with breast milk and they did great, huh, okay, okay, there you have it. I'll try it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it may attract probably induced lactation. Today you guys, like I could still if I wanted to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, take that back out of the freezer. Sunshine and water.
Speaker 1:The last time I pumped was like five years ago and I, yeah, I could still probably. There you go, there you go crazy.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, jacqueline, for coming and being on this with us yeah, you've taught us so much and we're so grateful oh, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:This is awesome. I think this is like one of the most fun podcast interviews I've ever done. And thanks, this is awesome.
Speaker 3:I told you we're goofy quirky, what's you know, what you know? What else more can you have?
Speaker 1:I love it well, we'll catch you again next time and we'll make sure and share. If there's anything you want to share of how people can access you, I feel like I don't want to skip that it. How do we find you if people want to take advantage of your course, your group, your resources?
Speaker 2:Yeah, easiest way is just go to holisticlactationcom. Everything's on there, but I know people like to just go use social media, so the only platform that I put any effort into is Instagram. So that's just at. Holistic lactation, all one word Send me a DM and we can connect there, awesome.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Bye.