Surrogacy Is a Podcast
Surrogacy Is a Podcast
Exploring Ethical Family Building with Sharna Caceres, Texas Fertility & Adoption Attorney
What motivates someone to specialize in fertility and adoption law, especially in a place like Texas? Join us as we sit down with Sharna Caceres, a compassionate attorney whose expertise and personal commitment to ethical family building will leave you inspired. From new hair colors to dinosaur earrings, we start on a personal note, sharing playful family moments and the excitement of our podcast’s return after a brief hiatus. Sharna’s unique blend of legal expertise and PR skills has given her a distinct edge in navigating the complex world of surrogacy and fertility law, and she sheds light on some of the more misunderstood aspects of her field.
Throughout our conversation, we unravel the heartfelt motivations behind professionals in the fertility and surrogacy space. Sharna shares personal anecdotes that highlight the selflessness and dedication of surrogates and egg donors. Through touching stories, such as a surrogate who chose to adopt a child, we reflect on the rewarding, yet often misunderstood, nature of this work. Misconceptions about egg donors’ intentions and the sacrifices they make are cleared up, showing the profound impact these individuals have on creating new families.
Lastly, Sharna provides invaluable legal advice for anyone considering assisted reproduction. We discuss the critical importance of having a state-licensed attorney, especially with the nuances of state laws like those in Texas. The pitfalls of using generic contracts are laid bare, with Sharna stressing the need for proper legal representation to safeguard all parties involved. Tune in for an engaging conversation that blends practical advice with the joys and challenges of building families through surrogacy and adoption.
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💜 Check out the requirements to become a surrogate: https://surrogacy.is/requirements/
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💜 Surrogacy in the US: https://surrogacy.is/become-a-surrogate/
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It's weird seeing you with brown hair. I love it so much. It's beautiful. It just is like it's going to take me a minute, I think. I don't know how I feel about it.
Speaker 2:I love it, I do love it.
Speaker 1:I just think that it is not the normal that I've seen for years now.
Speaker 2:So I know Jasmine is so upset she's like I don't like it. What is it? That's not your hair color, your hair color is pink, I'm purple, I'm sorry, honey, it's not so this weekend, or maybe it was on Monday, I can't remember, who knows. We dyed Jasmine's hair blue with my color depositing conditioner, so her hair is like a teal right now, and mine's brown we like flip-flop I will.
Speaker 1:I need picturesal right now. And mine's brown you like flip flop I will. I need pictures, please After this. Thank you very much. I like your dinosaur. So my Trinity was helping me get dressed this morning and I had put this green shirt on and she goes. I know which earrings you should wear, mom, and I was like which ones. She runs into my bathroom and grabs them the dinosaur earring. I'm like yep, let's do it, we're going to do it. We have a podcast today.
Speaker 2:So this is good. Good. Well, I'm so excited because we've been trying to connect with Sharna for a long time on our podcast and I just love her perspective on family building and I know she's often a drafting attorney for intended parents but she has such a good ethical heart for protecting surrogates. I know sometimes it seems like they're opposing Are you advocating for the intended parent, are you advocating for the surrogate? But advocating for the surrogate is advocating for the intended parent and I feel like she's always brought that perspective.
Speaker 2:I remember when we first met with her, something she said that really stood out and I always say it too is when she's talking to intended parents and drafting the contract and talking about lost wages and and how much time she's going to want, and they're like well, does she really need six weeks? If she's not bringing home a baby, can she just go? Can we just pay two weeks of lost wages? And she was like I want you to remember this woman is going to have a baby for you for six weeks. She's going to be wearing the diaper, yeah.
Speaker 1:And her insides are going to be healed. Let's just put that in perspective.
Speaker 2:Exactly, oh yeah, yeah, six weeks.
Speaker 1:Got it, yeah. And I think it's so easy for women, even surrogates, to say, well, maybe I don't need a full six weeks, because they feel that sense of like I don't want to take more from these intended parents. And it's not that it's that you've literally carried a baby for nine months and you need to let your body heal, because that is something that is something that is necessary to make sure that you're okay and that you're well-being, because you're still a mom, you're still doing life and so taking a beat. I always tell these women I don't want you working, I want you to really take a beat and make sure you give your body the time it needs to heal. Although, sunshine, I think you well, we worked remotely, but I remember you coming back a short couple of weeks afterwards as we started.
Speaker 2:Yeah, last time I was really bad. I did not take my own advice. I came back after six days after. You're crazy Although but I was sitting in my room and you and Kyle were working and I was watching Shark Tank and I had watched like I'm like how much Shark Tank can I watch? I need to get back to work, um, that's all I wanted to do Work is my hobby.
Speaker 2:So when people ask me what are your hobbies, I'm like uh, my job hobbies, what's that? Um so, but I was sitting on the couch with my dog and my laptop on my lap, my feet up working. It's different. It's not like I was going back to the factory or something.
Speaker 1:Exactly, it's different. I'm excited. I'm excited to have Sharna on, because she is very passionate and she has got a lot of knowledge and she's been doing this a long time. So having another perspective from a professional, I think, is huge. So eager and excited to hear her perspective, let's do this, yeah. So let's meet Sharna.
Speaker 2:We got the green light to go. Okay, so sorry, this has been such an awkward start guys. I can't even remember it's been a while since we've recorded a podcast because we've been kind of on a little bit of a hiatus and break. And Casey, like Casey said, we've been rescheduling lots of things Cause we've had we've had similar like chaos in our organization lately, that like putting out fires and so and and rebuilding processes and kind of re establishing things, and so we're like I can't do a freaking podcast today, but today we can and we are so here and we are excited. And I can't even remember Casey, like what do I normally do?
Speaker 1:I say service is the podcast. We're here with Sharna and we want you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about why don't you do it no you see, you do it better no, I don't okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, hi everyone, welcome to. Surrogacy is a podcast. We are here today with Sharna Caceres, who we're so excited about and we adore um. Sharna, you are a Texas attorney specializing in fertility, adoption, all all those things related to um helping people build families in non-traditional ways in Texas, so I would love if you could just tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and um. Some things I didn't really know is that you had a background in PR and crisis management too, so I want to hear all about all those things.
Speaker 4:Yes, so I wouldn't be a mom if I didn't start off, especially like a mom who's an attorney focused on building families, right, if I didn't start off my own kids. So I have four, five and seven year old and I am married to my college sweetheart of 20 years. We've been married since 2007. And so he's been on this wild ride with me of going to law school to be a family building attorney, building out my practice and, and you know, now we're in year 13. That's pretty special 13 years of Casares Law.
Speaker 4:Yes, I know so I joke. It always feels weird because it's his last name on the law firm. So so you know he's, he's been a great support of me and and the families, especially when they're here in San Antonio. He has installed car seats and cars, taught people how to, you know, safely secure their children, and he's so he's been, he's really been along the ride.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he is. He's part of the team. I love that. What, I guess? What was that thing that inspired you to enter into fertility law and in this field?
Speaker 4:Sure. So this is probably not the PC answer, but I was adopted via step parent adoption when I was about eight and you know, I truly believe a lot of people are drawn to working out their traumas or their troubles or their issues through their careers traumas or their troubles or their issues through their careers. And so I, you know, being a parenthood attorney helping people become parents, I feel like I am taking the hardest parts that I've overcome in life as a little girl and making this road so that other children have these beautiful stories of how they were conceived and how families were built. Um, and so I joke, you know, with when people the elevator, you know, pitch when I get that question is I had too much cellulite to be a stripper so you might as well be a fertility lawyer those are the options, I guess one or the other
Speaker 4:yes, but it's funny because, like in this field, a lot of times when we have get togethers or networking, and the more I get to know people, I'm like I think that you're doing this because you're overcoming your issues and you don't even know that and they're like how did you know my same old story you could have been a therapist too.
Speaker 2:You had lots of options.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's funny because I'll tell anybody who will listen when you're entering into this space and you meet the different professionals, usually everybody has a story their why. What brought them to considering entering into this and working in it in a professional manner, whether it be that they were a surrogate or helped a family or experienced loss. And I think that's really special too, because it's a whole bunch of professionals who can really share that empathy, that what brought them here? Why did they decide they wanted to do this? So I think that's special.
Speaker 4:No, it's. It's remarkable to be able to use your life experience to help someone, especially someone who's not even alive. Right A lot of times when people come to me, they have not even created embryos. They're just a spark of hope, a dream and someone's eye. So it's really nice to help people focus on translating all of their dreams into how can we do this for the best interest of the child. I love that. Yeah, that's something that I think really separates people in our field. As you know, we have a lot of investors who are coming into this field venture capitalism and that's not to say that it's all bad, but I think that when you have a lot of professionals who are focused on doing this for this future child because you know, what might not even be an embryo right now, someday is going to be a person who's going to be sharing their story of how they came to be with their children, with their grandchildren and whatnot, and so we really have the duty and the responsibility, but also the honor, of helping write out that story for someone.
Speaker 1:You hit the nail on the head. I love that and I'm curious what are those things, those misconceptions that you see in this industry as far as the gestational carrier and egg donation? Do you have and see just in your field, misconceptions that we could talk to?
Speaker 4:Yeah, for sure. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about donors as far as what is their intent Is. You know, why are they doing this? Why would someone do this for me? Um, and and really having that conversation with someone, um, a lot of donors maybe don't want their own children, but they want to be able to share that physical ability that they have with you by giving you their DNA so that you can carry on your dream. That's a huge gift, and then I think another really big one with surrogates, is intent as well.
Speaker 4:So I actually had a client who was a surrogate years ago, who she was wonderful, she had carried for a family a few times and she had such a large heart that she had met a mom in a Facebook group who was placing their child for adoption and she actually adopted that child, and so I did the adoption and then the birth family came back later and tried to manipulate the situation and tried to sue for the child back after the child had been with her and her family for quite a long time, and I was actually placed on the stand. I said use me Like. I coached her lawyers and their team on you know what, what they should do legally, because I'm not a litigator. And then I had them put me on the stand and the judge asked me. She said well, why wouldn't this woman try to take another woman's child? And I told her well, very simple, she's a surrogate. If she wanted to have her own biological, genetically related child, she could, she could. Why would she go through the effort? Um of you know trying to take someone else's you know child, um against their will.
Speaker 4:And I I tell that story often because it's the same right. I mean, surrogates are very fertile women. If they wanted to have another child, wanted to have another child, they easily could. And so you know, thank goodness for that child that my client adopted. It ended up staying in their home and that child's doing really well. But I think there are a lot of questions around intent, because it's hard for someone to understand how could someone do something so big, so grand to help me? Why would they help me? Why would someone go out of their way to change my world through the sacrifice of their family?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they must think we're crazy.
Speaker 4:I think you have to be a little bit crazy to do it but I mean in a in a wonderful way, right. I mean if, if people weren't self-starters, if they didn't have that little bit of not recklessness but selflessness to take that risk for someone else, that's huge yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, uh, as a, as a surrogate. I think people often, um ask why, why would you do that? Why did you do that? How could you do that? Um, and I am, I am a person that likes to do something kind of wild and crazy sometimes. So I think I'm like, oh, I just, I want to do something, like I'm the, I'm the person that goes and similar to, like, rescues all the animals I want to have. You know, I want to make a difference, I want to make an impact, I want to help somebody, I want to do it in a big way and, um, it's just, it's a. Yeah, I mean, I guess the world is lucky that people have those types of desires, because if we didn't, it'd be very sad.
Speaker 1:It would look a little different, and that's and I think that's it Right. I I always say I can't imagine not being a mom, and if I had been told I wasn't able to be a mom, that would have been devastating. And so for me, having a friend who had dealt with infertility and watched that struggle, knowing that there was something I could do, and I was a little weirdo that enjoyed pregnancies, so why not? And I think it's special. I do know that there's a lot of components, pieces that go into this to create this beautiful outcome.
Speaker 1:I remember when I was carrying my first surrogate journey and I was at the ultrasound and the tech had asked if he wanted to know the gender and the intended dad threw his hands in there. I was like yes, yes. And the tech had said it's a boy and he throws his hands and he's crying. Everybody in the room is crying my husband's crying, the intended mom's crying, I'm crying and the tech at the very end had said thank you. And I remember kind of thinking, thank you, what do you mean, thank you? She's like this is incredible. Look at how many people put into this for this outcome. So it is special and it is something that I know as a surrogate myself, I'm proud of every day. That's why I've fallen in love with this industry and we work so hard to advocate for it, because I can imagine there are so many intended parents out there who are still struggling and trying to figure out how do they grow their family, because they so desire to have kids.
Speaker 4:And it's the most ethical way to build your family right now. I mean, that's why I, when I went to law school, I was like I'm going to do, you know, adoption and some fertility stuff, and then I very quickly saw that, you know, adoption's a very gray area. There's a lot of really sketchy stuff that goes on Really and I didn't feel comfortable with, especially with a lot of adoption agencies, and so I so quickly fell in love with surrogacy, because I think there's just there's so many people in this field when we, when we really come together as a village and write that story out in the right way, I mean, what else could be more beautiful to do with your life, right, and I think that's, I mean that I would say sunshine. Maybe you're a little bit of an eccentric and that you love to spread, you know, light and beauty, just like your name and um, and that's what makes life so beautiful.
Speaker 2:I'm curious to hear if you'd be willing to share, like, what are some things in the adoption arena that you have seen that make you feel I know there's obviously adoption's a beautiful thing and there's a lot of really wonderful family building stories of adoption. But what are some of the the dark sides of that that you've encountered?
Speaker 4:So one thing that's very disturbing to me is a lot of birth moms. Once they've given birth to a child, they will purposely get pregnant again for the placement, because their living expenses are paid for and they are so disadvantaged that they have no other way to care for themselves and the children that they do have.
Speaker 1:So they're almost promoted to get pregnant again and put another pilot up Like um, I feel like that's what people think surrogacy is.
Speaker 2:People think that that's what, what surrogates?
Speaker 1:are Yeah't be further from the truth.
Speaker 4:Yeah, um. And then of course, you know, having the experience of seeing this and helping friends through this, where agencies, you know you, the, the hopeful adoptive parents, are just paying, you know, hand over fist, for adoption expenses, expenses some of which are very questionable. And then you know, once someone changes their mind, there's no recourse, not necessarily, yeah, you're out, and so you know not that anyone should be able to do otherwise, but you know people say just adopt, but they don't realize there's a lot of complication that comes with that. And then you know, long-term, um, you know my, my biological dad.
Speaker 4:He terminated his rights to me when I was um, voluntarily, and there's trauma that comes with that. And so you know I thought when I'm older I'll be over it when I have my own kids, no, because now you have to explain it to this little, this little you, that's your heart walking out of your. You know your body like. You know how do you explain to your child that their biological grandparent terminated their rights to you, like, willingly, without creating secondary trauma for your child? Or, you know, scaring your child? And so I think about, I think about all these things I mean through my work. I mean, what is this going to look like for this child as an adult, because people will say, oh, adoption is so happy. I'm like you had to go through a lot of trauma to get there.
Speaker 1:Are there resources and or do you point these families who are considering these different routes that they can go and have for their child when that child is of age to understand it? I mean, what are those things, those tools that you're giving your clients?
Speaker 4:So really good therapist, my really good friend, mayu Quevedo. She's amazing and I know with fertility patients. She does a lot of education with them and I love to send you know people to have those kind of resources world who've talked to her versus who haven't? Because the people who've talked to her know their conception story that they're going to tell their child. They have their plan on when they're going to share it with their child and it's something beautiful. And then when people don't have that education, they don't know any better, right? So they're, they're nervous or you know, I've heard doctors, you know, tell people like even as just a few years ago, like don't share this information with the child. And that is just like that is the hugest betrayal. Bind right, when your parents hide the information from you about your origins, I mean, how can you trust anything after?
Speaker 1:that Well and there's so many resources out there that they could find them out later in life if they wanted to. I think we've had a few different professionals on talking about the topic of having it be open egg donation and sperm donation, of knowing who and where and why and understanding that helps that other person who is the child I had. A situation was a little different, that I had learned at an early age that my dad wasn't my dad and that I had a different person that was my dad. That could be right. So I remember that blowing up in my face going wait, what, what do you mean? And everything that I thought I knew, I didn't know, and there was that sense of anger and darkness and just not really understanding it. So I think it's huge.
Speaker 4:How did that affect your career through surrogacy and where you are today?
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, I mean you have an hour or two.
Speaker 1:It's that trauma. It's that trauma I was talking about hour or two. It's that trauma. It's that trauma I was talking about You're. You're through it, right? I mean there's. Being a mom is is something I desire so much, because I didn't necessarily have those resources at my fingertips where I had the loving parents who desire to be there. And I think that's you know, you, with surrogacy. What I think is so beautiful is these parents want a child so bad and they desire this baby so much and this child is going to be so loved. That, to me, is incredible, and so every day I get to talk with intended parents and hear their why, and hear their trauma and their sadness, but also that hope that the hopefulness that they're going to someday see and hold their baby to me, the hopefulness that they're going to someday see and hold their baby to me, like there's nothing like it.
Speaker 2:Every day we get to do something special and it's I think it makes such an impact, even in the whole world, like I feel. I feel like there's so much that's not in our control and there's a lot of ugliness and darkness in the world. And knowing that you're helping people be born to families that love them and are going to nurture them and want them and take care of them, that those children are going to grow up mentally healthy, then there's going to be more mentally healthy people walking around in the world is really cool and and so necessary, like I, uh I I feel like it's it's one good thing that we're doing. That's having a real impact when I feel like so much of the world is out of control.
Speaker 1:Do you have any success stories, any things, any highlights that you really just love sharing um being in this field that you're in right now building families?
Speaker 4:I. That's so hard because then I have to choose just a few families to speak about For me. I come from a line of blood cancers and so I like to do a lot of pro bono work within the cancer community and so seeing people who have survived cancer and then intimately being part of them building their family, and seeing those children here, I mean what an awesome way to kick cancer's ass, and I love that that's. It just gives me you know so so much hope for the future. I think one thing that also really touches me is my clients, who really did not think this was going to be a possibility, waiting for that other shoe to drop really did not think this was going to be a possibility, waiting for that other shoe to drop.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so you know, maybe they came from a culture, as a gay couple, where this was just not an option and for it to now be an option and then to see their parents. You know the grandmas who are just, you know, when it happens and they're like. You know the grandmas who are just, you know, when it happens and they're like they really never thought this would happen. I had one special case where a mother-in-law carried on behalf of her daughter-in-law. That was really cool. That's, I mean, that's a very unique in-law situation. Yeah, that was really special.
Speaker 4:Um, I've, you know, as I've mentioned, you know, jose, being along for this ride. We've had, you know, many clients who've been in our homes, who we've taken care of when, you know, they have a baby born. In San Antonio, we had a really sweet couple from Israel who had never had the real Christmas experience and their baby was born at Christmas time and at the hospital where I delivered my kids at, and it was really neat to not only, you know, bring them food and take care of them, but then also have them over at our house and they got to see the.
Speaker 3:Christmas tree and it was so magical. It was like their first Christmas tree they've ever seen. It was like watching the wonder of a child's eyes, you know, but as an adult, I love that of a child's eyes, you know, but as an adult. And we, you know, we had saved all of our, our baby stuff, and we gave it to them.
Speaker 4:So that was really cool. You know, you think, like gee, we tried for so many years for our daughter and I was so excited to pick out all of those things for her when, um, when I was pregnant with her, and I didn't think that, you know, they would one day be in the hands of this precious family. You know, far, far away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so special all the way you know and other parts of the world, that that, the way that surrogacy connects people that otherwise would never have crossed paths, I think is a really special thing.
Speaker 4:Very special.
Speaker 1:I'm curious because we refer to you amongst a handful of our amazing attorneys that we just really want our intended parents to and our surrogates to be in good hands. When you're meeting with an intended parent and or surrogate, who's figuring out which attorney she's going to use or they're going to use? What are some of the things that you recommend to your clients that they should be considering and looking at when making that decision on what attorney they're landing with and why?
Speaker 4:So I want to give them some really important information so they can make the best decision for themselves.
Speaker 4:Whether that's me or someone else, the attorney you have is going to be your ride or die, so it needs to be someone you feel comfortable with, someone that you emotionally connect with, as well as feeling that they're a stellar legal professional. So I tell people, whether you're an independent parent or a surrogate, one thing that's important to me when we look at compensation is making sure the only child or children that are alive at this moment are protected, and that's the surrogate's kids, right? So I want to make sure that we have provisions to take care of her if she passes away. I know y'all have seen it in this field where there has been a surrogate who passed away and there's a GoFundMe and that just breaks my heart that someone would not have that basic life insurance policy to make sure that her family's taken care of and I know you take care of your surrogates really well. So this isn't even necessarily a discussion that would need to be taken place, but you know there's no reason why someone should have a $250,000 life insurance policy.
Speaker 4:I mean, it's a lot of money, but it's not when you're looking at a family of four with kids.
Speaker 4:Exactly, and she's the one picking up the kids from school, cooking the meals, saving for their college education. All of the emotional labor that we do that's unpaid and unseen and we want to make sure this child is taken care of. So that's. You know. I tell people like, whether it's me or someone else, look at that. And and another one that is maybe unpopular is gross versus net for lost wages. So when we're talking about reimbursing her for her lost wages let's say she's on bed rest Gross lost wages refers to that whole wage. Net loss wage refers to the wage after taxes are taken out, after benefits are taken out.
Speaker 4:The problem with reimbursing her with net loss wages, in my opinion one it assumes that someone's withholding I'm not withholding any money for the IRS. I'm not withholding any money for the IRS. I'm not telling you if you owe any money to the IRS, but you know it's assuming that there's. If the IRS, I think, saw it, they'd probably say like, hey, who's withholding and I'm not a tax professional Right, and so I may say make sure you speak with a tax professional. But you know, if she's paid, reimbursed that net loss wage, then if she goes, let's say, to pay taxes on that then she's not really reimbursed her whole wage, it's just a smaller portion. So I know that's unpopular.
Speaker 1:I love that you're saying this because that's what we do and we've kind of been going against the grain with everything. Life insurance 750. We want to get the most for this person, assuming that the likelihood of this ever happening right it's so small we have in the years I've been doing this, but it is necessary to make sure we protect these women. And the same thing with gross lost wages. When we created our benefit package, that was huge for Sunshine and I. It was making sure, and we've gotten some pushback from some attorneys like what's the deal with this? Gross lost wages instead of net? And it's like, well, let's talk about that, right.
Speaker 2:Well, part of what's withheld is your contributions to Medicare and social security, and these are things that you're not. Because you're not earning, you're not putting money into your social security or your Medicare and you still like you're still entitled to that because you would have earned it. So, yeah, I think it's. It's not up to attorneys to say, oh well, this is net and then to trust that they get it accurate, like how about I'm paid $25 an hour?
Speaker 2:I expect to be reimbursed for lost wages $25 an hour, and don't do some weird fancy confusing math to determine that it's less than that. Just leave it alone.
Speaker 4:And I tell it to their parents, like hey, you know, there's a lot of gray area from my understanding about the IRS and surrogacy right now. Like if you're going to mess with anyone, don't mess with the IRS. Like just, let's just not do that, let's just do. You know, uh, everyone wins this way. Um, it's the right thing to do, and I think that's why I have a reputation where I feel like I'm humble, bragging here.
Speaker 4:We all have surrogates who are like I want you to represent my intended parents Because I mean, I just think like listen, there's one child that's alive here right now. Like we're going to do the right thing because it's the right thing, we're not going to take advantage of anyone and you know, I think collectively, in the long run, it's important we do the right thing if we're going to protect surrogacy as it is. You know, as a community we have to be so vigilant about upholding the best standards, even if it's to our personal sacrifice. Because if I mean, I don't think people realize like it's not just affecting people in the United States who are building families through surrogacy. Many countries surrogacy is not legal and so an adoption is even harder in those countries, and so this is that person's only shot to come here.
Speaker 1:That person's only shot to come here, Unless you want to do something like have a surrogate in a third world country, well, that happens too, which is scary as well.
Speaker 4:That just makes me wild. I get, I get really, I get really upset about that. I mean it's, you know, my husband's from Peru.
Speaker 1:I know, Casey, your husband is from Mexico, and there's a reason why people from those countries come here for surrogacy because it's safe here, because there are guidelines here they have at least the healthcare, to know that they although there are some things wrong with our healthcare big thing, but at least they know they have the ability to go and receive care, and I think that's huge if you're entering into this process, to make sure you have the necessary care.
Speaker 2:Well and that and that. There you know. There the human rights element. It's a lot easier to exploit women in countries where, and especially if you say you were an American going abroad to a country where you don't speak the language and you can't communicate with your surrogate necessarily, and you're trusting a translator who may be saying things that she's not saying, and it's just, I think, the risk of exploitation is too high.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're not getting out without a bribe. Like the bribe is going to happen as part of the culture. Saying that it's not going to happen is trying to fight an entire cultural issue. That, like you're going to be expected to pay a bribe and once you pay that bribe you are participating in human trafficking. That's your child's story. Yeah, no thanks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no thanks, so we do this. We call it mean tweet segment. Sunshine, did you have any other questions before I rolled into this part of it.
Speaker 2:I did. I did want to ask you just um about international families, cause I think you help a lot of international families, um, are there any special considerations that you advise people who are coming to the United States from another country in, like any challenges or hurdles that they're going to face legally with pursuing adoption that they should consider?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so one.
Speaker 4:Well, with surrogacy, yes, okay, yeah, so I think one thing that's really tricky about surrogacy is when we talk about people coming from one state or country and their surrogates in another state.
Speaker 4:It's it's like doing this horrible jurisdiction bar exam question, so it's a lot for people to absorb, rightfully. So I think, with that in mind, it's important that you know you're working with counsel in your own country to coordinate with your attorney in that particular state, because each state has different processes and so it's very common for intended parents who've maybe come and they have a friend who's, let's say, had a surrogate in Missouri, and then they expect that it's the same process in Texas and we have completely different laws and so, based on their situation, they might have one state that's more favorable than the other. So, for example, like Texas, we don't do preplanned adoptions like Florida does. So I would just balance out like Florida does. So I would just balance out. I'm not saying don't go to Florida, but just have an understanding of what the process is here and how that could affect what your attorney needs in your home country.
Speaker 2:Do you think the drafting attorney or the intended parents attorney should be licensed in the state where the child's being delivered? I hear different things from different people have different philosophies on that. I'm curious what yours is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, not always. So. For example, when I have, I'm happy to pass along clients if I think that they're better served with an attorney in another state. Um, because at the end of the day, it's not about me or my business or being paid to draft a contract. I want to make sure that the family is safe and taken care of, but, um, you know Texans, we have particular abortion laws and so I think it's in their best interest if they're going out of state to have a Texas attorney representing them, because specific language would be very detrimental to them. So I think it's it's kind of the worst attorney answer right, we always say it depends.
Speaker 1:It really does right and that I think it really does.
Speaker 4:it does depend. So you know, having an experienced attorney, they should be able to to tell you what and get a second opinion. It doesn't hurt to get a second opinion, a third opinion. You know I tell people I want to make sure you feel most comfortable with me. If you feel most comfortable with someone else, you belong where you feel most comfortable. You've been through so much to get to this point and so you need to feel supported um and confident in where you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, thank you. I'm always curious about those jurisdiction questions, because the answer is different always depending on who you ask. I think that's really good advice, though, to to form a full opinion, to ask different professionals, ask a couple of different attorneys and then put together the answer that feels most right.
Speaker 2:I mean, don't do your own research right online but talk to different professionals attorneys who are licensed and can give you different aspects to consider, and then you can decide what's most important for you. I think I've always hate the phrase do your own research, because most of us are not qualified to do research and we're not researchers. So definitely speak to the professionals who know best and talk to a few. That's a great advice, thank you.
Speaker 4:I've had a couple calls recently where people have asked me about engaging my services, but they want to use the contract, maybe from a surrogate that they're planning on matching with her previous journey or something they found online. And you know, my first question is how do you know that this is a good contract or that it was drafted by even a really good lawyer? I mean, they didn't know your situation and so you know whether and that's besides you know whether they're stealing someone else's intellectual property by doing that. But it's just, it's never in anyone's best interest. I mean, gosh, like I'm all for go generic when you buy groceries or do anything you can save, but like legal stuff. You really don't want to just use something you found off of the Internet.
Speaker 1:No, there should be skimping in that side of this process for sure. Yeah yeah, my husband hates when I bring home off-brand ketchup, but I'm like, well, it's the same in green.
Speaker 4:It's autonomy. I mean. I'm not allowed to do that.
Speaker 1:So we, we, we need to do the research and we need to know and lean on our professionals. I'm not allowed to do that. So we, we, we need to do the research and we need to know and lean on our professionals.
Speaker 1:Off-brand ketchup, Casey, really I don't do the cooking in our house, nor do I get. I don't have to even do the groceries. I'm a little bit spoiled when it comes to that. So that's nice, anyways. Well, we do a mean tweet segment and what we do is I will drop something here to you. We get some, I guess, off the wall, really thoughtless comments that somebody might say or have an opinion on, and then we like to have the professionals read that. So I'm going to drop this here, if you could read it, and then we will put that, the text message, in there, and you can respond to it. Hopefully it's easy to find.
Speaker 4:I put it in the studio, so I respond to this by responding to them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd like you to read it aloud. Okay, and then what would you say to this person?
Speaker 4:Okay, here we go. If we didn't do surrogacy, then we wouldn't have a family. I'm assuming she's never heard of adoption, oh gosh. Also, ivf is immoral, especially when there are 400,000 children in the system. Furthermore, if they're going to ban abortion because life begins at conception, then they need to ban IVF too, because if life begins at conception, then why should anyone be able to take that life and freeze it? You want my response.
Speaker 1:Yes, please, raw Bless your heart.
Speaker 4:There you go. It's bless your heart. So in Texas that can mean many things, and so I think that's the nicest thing I could say to this. So, first of all, this person probably did not adopt all their children. If they have children and adoption is a lot harder to achieve or to be even considered for than they probably realize so if you have had any kind of health condition like cancer in your past, then you are not eligible at most agencies to adopt. So, yeah, so if you have had cancer and you've cleared that and you've, are you just not supposed to have have a child at all? I mean, what if it was like childhood cancer, Same segment what if it was sort of all medical treatment? Then right, I mean that it's. It's crazy to think. That's just wild.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's one of those things that's like you don't even want to necessarily dignify it with a response because it's so stupid. It's like bless your heart is the maximum amount of energy you'd want to give to.
Speaker 4:And if we're worried about any kind of genetic material not being used. So how do we make sure if this was a guy, it was just a guy? Oh good question I don't know.
Speaker 2:Our name and our face are blocked out on it for to protect.
Speaker 4:So so yeah, I mean assuming he is a guy how are we going to make sure that we do not waste, but not one sperm that comes from his body, Right?
Speaker 2:I mean it's. We should criminalize menstrual cycles. It's silly Every time you ovulate, you have to get pregnant. God, can you imagine?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. That's crazy yeah.
Speaker 4:And then those are the same people that then say, like you know, have this attitude, that they think surrogates are like cats, just like always pregnant, you know, but yeah.
Speaker 2:I really, I really like people who, um, don't talk about things that they don't know anything about. Can we go back to that? Everybody has an opinion on stuff that they don't have anything about and they feel so entitled to just blurt that opinion out, and it's like could you maybe ask more questions?
Speaker 1:Well, and sunshine used to fill these all day long on our social media and we realized very quickly you can't talk.
Speaker 2:You can't talk sense.
Speaker 1:No, there's no common sense that's being had here, so why are we even spending the time? So what is it? Delete and repeat. Block, delete, repeat. And that's being had here. So why are we even spending the time? So what is it? Delete and repeat. Block delete, repeat.
Speaker 4:And that's all you can do. I mean, I think, too, like one of the signs of people who are the most brilliant and wise are they're quiet and they listen and they surround themselves with people who maybe have different points of view or they like to learn from other. I mean, gosh, I know I am not the expert on many things and I love to have friends who I can learn from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well, thank you for being a part of our mean tweet segment. Well, thank you for being a part of our mean tweet segment.
Speaker 4:I love this. I can just bless their heart all day. Give me all of them.
Speaker 2:We don't dignify them with a response anymore. We just screenshot them, save them and then let you guys respond to them on the podcast. That's right.
Speaker 4:I think they need a hug, yep. I don't think they've gotten a lot of hugs. Make them some cookies and give them a hug. Yeah, I just hope that for their sake, that life doesn't throw them a curveball where what they judged and have made harder for others is then the only solution.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's funny because I say I've. I've met a few people in my life who've given some grief to me being a surrogate or or not understood and said I don't understand why you would do that. I always reference back that I have four girls. My oldest is 18. At some, at some point, they want to be moms, I think, or maybe they don't, but if they do decide, they want to be moms, I think, or maybe they don't, but if they do decide they want to be a mom gosh. I hope that they don't have the struggle and the hurdle of not being able to conceive and if they do, I hope there's somebody on the other end willing to step up and support them and say I want to do this, I want to help you become a parent because I know what it's like. So it's like you don't know what that's going to look like. It could help. This could harm your kids as kids with your opinion and then your kids and kids are being faced with something that's tragic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what if your kids are infertile and then or they need help and you've just, you've just told them that they shouldn't do IVF and IVF should be illegal, and you're like, oh shoot, well, now I can't be a grandparent.
Speaker 4:I think that's one of the most understood aspects of what we do as professionals is that people think that we're just all about like, have a million kids, everyone. But you know, I think it's about empowering people, whether they want to be parents or not, you know, let's make that happen.
Speaker 2:Let's make it happen for people who want it and not make it happen for people who don't let's support that, yeah, yeah well. Thank you for coming on with us, sharna. I love seeing your face every time. It's just such a pleasure to see your beautiful face seeing you guys.
Speaker 4:I love spending time with you.
Speaker 1:Got a cool backyard background on there, so I like that I need to get myself a wig.
Speaker 2:We're going to have to come see your house in person one day. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4:Come on, all right, I love it, but not in the heat of summer.
Speaker 2:No, what's the best season to visit? Spring?
Speaker 1:or fall.
Speaker 4:Well, you know what Sharna?
Speaker 1:I actually am considering coming in the next few weeks just to do a tour to some of these clinics that are in the area. So I don't know where you're located at, but maybe I will be coming in the summertime.
Speaker 4:No, please do, but that so OK. I would not come in the summer, though, because a lot of people their vacation is kind of weird or like not everyone's in. Okay, I, if I were, if I were to choose, I would choose maybe like september okay, all right.
Speaker 4:Well, it'll still probably be stinking hot well, let me know, I'd love to meet up with you, and then I introduced susan to tfc the team. Are you going to be meeting with them? That's on our radar. Yep, I was talking to this one. Good, they're. They have, um they have clinics like uh, so in San Antonio it's like the biggest ones are Aspire um them, and then Fertility Center San Antonio. Well, there we go. So but, I think that, yeah, I think that um September.
Speaker 2:October.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's hot. All right and then people are out. Like I know, with the spire, people have been out this past month.
Speaker 2:Everybody flees Texas in the heat of the summer.
Speaker 4:It's so miserable, yeah so um, fall is really good, and I think too, because everyone like school, and so people are, you know, it's not that crazy time yet.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, we'll have to make it happen then. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I want to come see San Antonio so badly. I, my girlfriend, is from there and she's like you have to come, you have to see San Antonio and see where I'm from and it was beautiful. Um so I definitely want to come check it out.
Speaker 4:Please come. You have a place to stay always at my house and um I will cook for you. I won't use the known name. I said Casey.
Speaker 2:Casey out here buying generic mayonnaise. Come on, I don't need to.
Speaker 4:See, but that's, we have our own. We have our own grocery store system here, so we have HEB and our generics actually taste a lot of times better than the name brands. There you go. We heard it first, there you go.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:We'll we'll put that to the test.
Speaker 4:Well, I will have to take you to an HEB. Like I is when I go somewhere. Beautiful, I'm like, but do they have an HEB? Like when I go inside is there going to be a whole station of like cause, like they'll have like Tia's making tortillas, fresh tortillas, and we have like so much fresh food. That's just they're making.
Speaker 2:So you're making me so hungry right now.
Speaker 4:I haven't eaten yet, and it's one o'clock like fresh tortillas and fresh Mexican food, yeah, and they're like do you want to try one? They always give you like a tortilla. Yes, I do, yeah, so I'm like where else can I live where they have that? Yeah, san Diego, yeah, oh, they do in San Diego.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. Oh okay, what's that market that we used to go to Northgate in San Diego. It's good. They're always the fresh Mexican food and they make this really wonderful chicken salad that you put on tostada and the peas and carrots and it's just like enough of this enough of that.
Speaker 2:All right, it's lunchtime. Okay, one thing we forgot to tell you, cause Alex always tells you in the beginning Kyle's our, our, our sit in producer didn't give you the instructions, but when it's time to go, we say goodbye and then you click leave, but you don't leave because he has to pause the recording and make sure that it uploads. I didn't hear that. You did, he did. I didn't hear that.
Speaker 4:It's because she was so shocked by the ketchup.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, we had a a moment. She'll forgive me later make her a sandwich.
Speaker 2:She's cute he's gonna, he's he's not. He's not happy with me right now because I'm giving him hard time about not being Alex. Okay, just don't close the tab.
Speaker 4:Wait what happened? No, yeah, it froze, sorry, okay.
Speaker 1:Do I say something? Just say well, okay, so it's. It's. Thank you for coming on and being a part of this with us. Sharna, we are so grateful to have you and be able to have this opportunity to connect further.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much it was wonderful spending time with you all today. Bye. Bye.