Surrogacy Is a Podcast
Surrogacy Is a Podcast
Mental Health, Communication, and Building Support Systems with Joey Guzman-Kuffel, LMFT
Ever wondered why having a solid support system in surrogacy is crucial? In this episode, we sit down with Joey Guzman-Kuffel, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, to dig into this question.
Sunshine and Casey chat with Joey, discussing the emotional support needed by both surrogates and intended parents throughout their journey. Joey, founder of Counseling with Joey & Associates, brings his professional skills and personal experience as an intended parent into the conversation.
They dive into the courage and dedication required from everyone involved in the surrogacy process. From the importance of open communication to busting myths and fostering understanding, they cover it all. Plus, they share touching stories and grateful feedback from those who've walked this path.
We tackle the sensitive issues of disclosure and termination, the complexities of donor materials, and the myths surrounding surrogacy, all the while reinforcing the value of having an open dialogue.
There's no map for the emotions and challenges that come with surrogacy, but this episode walks us through understanding it. We discuss the importance of building a solid support system and the crucial role of transparency in donor conception, ensuring that the journey of surrogacy is navigated with love, commitment, and informed understanding. This conversation is not just about starting a family, but about nurturing the journey to creating that family with honesty, empathy, and connection.
To learn more about Joey and his counseling services, visit counselingwithjoey.com.
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Speaker 2:I'm so tired, casey, I hate this time change.
Speaker 1:I am. If, if they would just leave it at the time zone that it is right now, I'd be happy, because I was just saying to my girls I like being able to get off of work and not be dark outside and it would be really nice to get off of work and there be still light, so if they could keep it on this time zone, whoever's listening, let's make that happen.
Speaker 2:But you know it's naturally going to start staying light later anyways. So like we don't need to also give up the hour of sleep and have it be so dark in the morning. Like we don't need that.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I want the other time to stay you, you want the other one. Yeah, I think that's why they switch it, because they have too many people that are not sure what they want and they're like you know what. Let's go down the middle, I think um, there was like a.
Speaker 2:there was something on the ballot about it a while back, about like um, everybody voted to leave it one way, but then I think what the hang-up is is deciding which way to leave it, and so here we are.
Speaker 1:We're we're having the ballot vote. Well, maybe we'll ask Joey, because he seems full of wisdom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's probably exhausted too. I know, um, I we had Joey on a while back and our podcast was he was going to be our first guest, remember, and when we started and then we had some technological difficulties and we lost all of the footage. Joey's such a good sport, so he's coming back, but I'm actually really excited about it because what I want to talk to him about today, I think is even more important than just the conversation that we had last time, because I feel like one of the things that's really overlooked is intended parent psychological support. It's so important and it's so undervalued and I'm really excited for him to speak to what parents can get out of that and what are the important things they need to consider and and how to build a good support system. So I'm excited to do it over again, even though I might fall asleep.
Speaker 1:No, and I think he had brought so many aha moments for our last, one of like yeah, I hadn't thought about that, even being a surrogate to two times and being in this industry as long as I have some of those aha moments, I think for the parents, they're going to take away so much from that and hopefully add tools to their toolbox for a successful journey. So I am excited and probably won't be our last podcast with him. I think we'll utilize more opportunities to give these parents resources, because I think that's what you and I are noticing most. We've been spending the last four years really educating and giving these surrogates the tools, realizing, though, there are so many parents who don't have those same tools. So that's been our focus, and I'm super excited to be able to give that to these parents so excited to see what.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because what a scary, what a scary and brave thing to build your family through surrogacy, to take that leap of faith, and I just can't imagine the courage it takes to do that, both the emotional investment and the financial investment and to do that without a solid support system in place of just be even more scary. So I'm excited to talk to Joey again today Me too. Let's bring him in. Well, I? Um, let's see, for starters, I know we know who you are. I think I always assume everybody knows who Joey is, because to me you're like famous, because you are so you help so many people, you're an intended parent, you have so much empathy and connect with so many, so you're just like a big part of this community. So I assume everybody knows who you are. But for those who don't know, joey's a licensed marriage and family therapist and intended parent, twice through surrogacy, right With two sweet little girls, and runs a practice with how many on your team now?
Speaker 3:So there's two therapists that work with me and my husband, who runs my office.
Speaker 2:So three therapists supporting intended parents and surrogates, doing surrogate psych evaluations and that initial consultation with intended parents when they're entering into surrogacy, and I just think you're amazing.
Speaker 2:And I know that we have kind of baked your service into part of the support that we have for our intended parents through our agency, because we see the value in that mental health support, not just for the surrogate but for the intended parents and I think that's an often overlooked need for intended parents through a lot of agencies and even by intended parents themselves.
Speaker 2:I think you invest so much and go through so much to get to the point where you decide that, okay, I'm going to build my family through surrogacy and everything feels like extra hoops maybe. So I wanted to hear from you if you could share with intended parents that might be listening. And I know one of the things that I really try to work on training my staff on is not referring to the initial consult with a mental health provider as an evaluation, because it's not an evaluation. The surrogate does have a psych evaluation to make sure that she's ready and prepared for surrogacy and that she qualifies and she doesn't have any mental health conditions ongoing, but for intended parents it's not an evaluation right. So I would love for you to share what does go into that conversation, what's the purpose of it and what's the benefit for parents in having that initial consultation.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's such a valuable, valuable piece in this whole process. Not to mention that, to begin with, it is practice of care for standard practice of care for intended parents to go through this psychoeducational consultation, because it's, you know, set forth by the guidelines by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, but also by SEEDS as well. But also by seeds as well, and you know, going back to my experience when I was going through surrogacy for the first time, we just got this, you know, recommendation to you have to go see a mental health provider for an evaluation. So I thought, okay, so they're going to evaluate us and here we go, you know. But I was just very excited just to kind of get through it, because we had been waiting for so long to build our family. But after we finished the consultation with the mental health provider, it was very clear to me that it was much more than just wanting to have a child. There's a lot of steps that go into the process that deserves a lot of attention and we are making, as intended parents, we're making a lot of decisions based off of our emotions and what our own thoughts are about the process and we're really not thinking about what that means for the people that are helping us or, very specifically, the child that's going to be born.
Speaker 3:Through this process, you get to talk to someone about all of these different things that you probably would not be thinking of, and when you meet with a mental health provider for a psychoeducational consultation, you're going to be talking about what your dreams are, what your hopes are in terms of what you want your family to look like. You know, what is your history look like? What journey have you been on? Um, what? What is your, your history? Look like? Like, what journey have you been on? And what is, you know, um, the reason why you're going to be, uh, going through surrogacy? You're going through a gamut donation, um, and you're going to talk about when you're going to be using an egg donor or sperm donor. Like, how, like what goes into that selection process. Like you know, there's much more than just like well, we want them to be, we want them to be a certain way, but like what does it mean in terms of their classification? Because that's something that we don't think about when we go into it.
Speaker 3:What is a non-identified donor? A non-identified donor with open identity release? An identified donor? A directed identified donor? No one knows that, and when I meet with people and talk about that and provide that information, they're like, oh, we had no idea. Or sometimes I'll even get intended parents who say, well, the attorney just suggested that I go with anonymous because it's the easiest thing and that was the culture or maybe kind of still is from a long time ago. But there's a lot of information that we have now about the importance of donor-conceived people understanding who their donor is, what that process was like, and so going into an intended parent psychoeducational consultation, you learn about your options and what that means for you but also what that means for the donor conceived child, so you're able to make informed decisions.
Speaker 3:So the intended parent psychoeducational consultation is really emotional, psychological preparation. It just it really helps you navigate the surrogacy process in a way that you might have not thought of. I thought it was very helpful for me. Now, part of the reason why I got into this field was because I felt that there could have been a lot more discussed in my psychoeducational consultation. I thought I could have been prepared a little bit better, and so that really motivated me to want to help other people understand the complexities of it, and I'm someone who is not just a therapist but also a two-time death or surrogacy. But my journeys haven't been smooth ah, loss and grief, and so those are the things that I feel like I go into the sessions is like pinpointing these things that you need to be aware of, even if it's just a hypothetical scenario at the time.
Speaker 3:But like if something like this were to happen, how would you navigate that? You know, are you ready for that? Do you have a support system in place? So the meeting with a mental health provider can help you with? You know, sperm donor selection process, the selection of a surrogate that's also very important. Understanding that this process is a relational experience and that it's not like, oh, it's just a transactional experience. Understanding that you know a surrogateate legally, a surrogate can or cannot do it, and the same thing for intended parents. So there's a lot that's discussed. It's very valuable. You'll come out learning a lot about the process so that you can make informed decisions.
Speaker 1:I had a question for you, joey. You had made a statement that when you're talking with parents for the first time, sometimes they have kind of their guard up or feel like wait a minute, what is this? Okay, I have to do this, so I guess I'm going to just get it over with. But then you had made the statement that after that consult, that first meeting, a lot of times you're like wow, this was nothing like I thought it was going to be, and there's so much benefit in this conversation that you just had with them Can you really speak to like what are those things that you feel like the aha moment of? Like gosh, I'm so glad I actually had this conversation. What are those topics that you're hitting on that you feel like a lot of parents aren't aware of and that you're bringing to light in a way that's really ensuring and encouraging and getting them excited about these next steps of this process?
Speaker 3:Well, I think, to begin with, casey and Sunshine is I explain what the process is going to be like. I kind of give them a little quick preview of what are we going to be talking about and I secure them in letting them know I'm not here to judge you, I'm not here to evaluate you. We're here to talk about some important things about your family building process, and this is very, you know, educational, informational, so that you guys can make the best decisions you can about your family building process. I think, once they know that they're not being evaluated, and I also explain to them like this is like the standard of care, like every professional in this field who is helping people build families through assisted reproduction or third-party reproduction, like we, this is a process because we care, we want to make every professional in this field who is helping people build families through assisted reproduction or third-party reproduction, like we, this is a process because we care, we want to make sure that everything goes well for you and give you the, the, the, the resources that that you need to to to navigate this complex process. Once I share that with them, I can see the walls coming down. I think we all need to come together in making sure that we are all using the same language so that people don't become afraid of meeting with the mental health provider or become defensive. Everyone going through this process has been through a lot of pain and struggle, and so to think that you're not going to be evaluated, that can be very scary and can that person you know, you know, keep us away from this big dream that we want you know to build a family. So, again, I think, language at the beginning, at all levels, from the fertility clinic to surrogacy agencies, to whomever's involved, I think that is something that we need to shift and change so that we all can become comfortable with meeting with the mental health provider.
Speaker 3:Now, when we're going through the actual discussion, the consultation, you know we talk about different things that you know give them information that make them feel comfortable with the discussion. Like we were mentioning earlier about understanding the different classifications of donors, that's like an aha moment where, like, I didn't even think about that. And when I go into why it's important to understand the type of classifications, it's because every decision that you make will have an effect or impact on your child, and so if you're thinking about the wellbeing and the welfare of your child. Like you want to understand what this is like, what are these classifications? And nobody goes into this thinking like I want to make sure I wanted my child to be harmed in any way. So they become more open to understanding what these classifications are and you know. And then, of course, they have time to think about it afterwards with their spouse and make a decision on what's best for them and their family.
Speaker 3:You know, tied to the classification of the donor, there's also like disclosure, right Disclosure about the surrogacy process, the using donor sperm or donor eggs for their process, like how do you discuss that with your child? And and there's a lot of fear around that and having been through the process myself, I add a little of my experience with the intended parents and I think that also helps in reducing some of the anxiety about not sharing that information. So, again, there is a lot of aha moments at different sections because I provide them with education that's already been documented. I can provide some life, real life experiences, that that come from me and my daughters. And then you know they're like I have questions. Okay, give me your questions. I allow space for questions to be answered and I think that gives them a lot of ease and peace around what they're going to be doing with their family building journey. I hope that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Do you talk a lot about communication with a surrogate or what their expectations are as far as how involved do they want to be or not be and how to navigate, like establishing that relationship? Do you talk about that at all during that initial consult?
Speaker 3:Yes, we do, because it's very important. One of the things that I open up very strongly is that the surrogacy experience is a very relational experience and so understanding what expectations you have around the relationship that you want to have with the surrogate, or even like debunk some of the myths around you know a relationship with the surrogate, you know a lot of people and there's also differences. There's differences between a heterosexual couple versus a same sex couple. A lot of the times, you know heterosexual couples might not want to have a relationship with the surrogate because they're thinking we don't want the surrogate to be another mom to our child, and so I have to talk to them about you know where that belief system comes from and also reminding them that the women who are helping us build our families aren't looking to be our children's parents. They already have their own children and they're raising their own children, but they're doing this for a different purpose and sometimes, when I go into that, I can again see the anxiety come down and they become more curious about it, and that's great. You know, when they get to a point where they can become curious about it, that means they're not locked into this idea. That is not true, and so we do talk a lot about the relationship aspect.
Speaker 3:I always say, when you're going into your match meeting, that is a time for you to talk with that person that you're going to be interviewing about what your expectations are around the relationship, what you feel comfortable with, what you don't feel comfortable with. You don't have to feel forced that you have to match with this first intended parent or surrogate just because there's a waiting list. You want to feel certain about your match, because there's also a lot of cases where it's not the best when you go into a match and there's a nightmare surrogacy case. I've had to work with some crisis situations and what I found in common in those situations was that the couples never talked about the relationship in their match meeting, and so I thought that was really interesting because I really focused on that.
Speaker 3:Having been through that being very transparent in my own process with the wonderful woman that helped me have my girls is that I knew what I wanted in that relationship and I wanted to be transparent with her so that she can tell me is she open to that, is she not open to that, will I be comfortable with her responses or not?
Speaker 3:Luckily, she had the same type of ideas that I did and it just it was such a wonderful match and today we still have a wonderful relationship. And so I really focus on what expectations do you have? You need to be open and transparent with that person, because that person also has their own expectations and hopefully they share that with you as well. But it all has to be a match and you want to be secure about it, because it's not like you go into it, into this one-time meeting, because it's like an hour and a half I remember I think mine was an hour, an hour and a half and you don't have a second or third date. It's just like you meet this one time and is it there. And so you want to make sure that you get a lot of what you're thinking or want to share with the surrogate at that point, so that you feel secure about that one meeting.
Speaker 2:So you talk with the parents about that before they go into the match meeting, to give them that guidance on what types of questions to ask.
Speaker 3:I do. I do because it's a psychoeducational consultation, and so I want you to have enough information to be prepared about the decisions that you're making. I want you to have enough information to be prepared about the decisions that you're making. So I think you know we want to give them this information to be prepared so they can feel confident or ask you questions. You know, when they're at that point of match meeting. We definitely want to empower them to be able to make decisions healthy decisions, of course. So the more information that they get, the better it is that they feel comfortable with what they're asking for or how they're going about asking for what they want.
Speaker 2:How they're going about asking it too is really important, I think. I think a lot of times, surrogates and intended parents maybe when they're going in that match meeting, they have a lot of nervous about how they're going to be perceived and wanting to say the right thing, so maybe they might withhold what they're feeling or what they really want, because they don't want to, like, scare away the other party. And I think maybe that's where that happens, where people are not honest about what their expectations are, maybe not even honest with themselves about what their expectations are. They don't take with themselves about what their expectations are. They don't take the time to explore, like, if they don't want to call you or they don't want to come to your appointments, is that going to bother you? Well, you're going to be okay with that, like, what's going to be your expectation?
Speaker 2:I think it's so important to have those conversations in that match call, but it is a lot when you even when you think about having that, that consult with you. What is this? A one hour maybe, maybe a 90 minute session?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's an hour to 90 minutes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's and then the same for the match call. Like that's a lot to cover in a really short time.
Speaker 3:And I do make them aware of that. So I, I, I, I have them track like okay, how much time did we spend? Right, and it's like a lot. That's like a lot that we covered in this time. That's what you're going to have to look forward to when you go into your match meeting. But because we covered all of these things, now you can go into that match meeting to ask the questions that you find that are really important for you based on what we've discussed, because it is a lot to cover. And even though we're covering a lot, I still feel like you can't cover everything, but you can. You can do as much. You can cover as much as possible to give them, like that nice foundation so that they can feel steady on what they're standing on.
Speaker 2:So I think that's great that that as a whole, the community requires this consult for intended parents through ASRM, but I do think there should be more of a standard for ongoing support, because things come up throughout the process and it's a long journey. It's not quick, right. It's like 18 months is on the short end, right no-transcript.
Speaker 1:aside from communication kind of relationship, what are maybe some other topic points that you say? I think you should discuss this and be something they're like oh, I'm so glad that you said this Really, because I'd love for our listeners to have some of this understanding. What are the questions that I should be asking when I go into really, because I'd love for our listeners to have some of this understanding Like, what is it? What are the questions I should be asking when I go into this match call or conversations I should be thinking about having.
Speaker 3:Well, I start off. Casey, that's a great question. But I start off with asking them, like to ask themselves questions about what they feel comfortable with, because a lot of the times we're not aware, right, but when you're going into, you know this intimate and complex relationship with another, with this woman who is going to help us carry our children, like we want to understand, like what our biases are, like, what, like, do we have anything around how we see this person and, for example, like diet or race, ethnicity, all of these things, because I want to remind them that we're all humans in this process and we don't want to hurt anybody going through this process. So there's a lot of times when I bring that up, like, have you ever thought about what you think of yourselves about this topic or how that relates to surrogacy? And a lot of times I'm like I didn't think about that, but you know what.
Speaker 3:I think I would struggle with this piece. Okay, why do you think that you would struggle with that piece? And is it something that that comes from? Like, again, a belief system? Like, what is your narrative about that Cause sometimes our, our thoughts can be flawed, and and and. So we want to make sure that we reality check with ourselves, and so I start off with like you know, what are your expectations? Like, what are some of the questions that you could be asking yourself about you know? Do you have any reservations or objections or, again, biases around? You know who you might want to work with, not want to work with. What do you struggle with, like boundaries, you know, and what does that look like? Are you comfortable with like not having control in this process? Because there's a lot of you know, at the beginning we make a lot of decisions and that feels like we're in control, but overall, like there's a lot that we can't control. And so are you comfortable with that or not? And I bring up the importance of like you know, understanding your anxiety and your thought process and what are your coping skills, because I do highlight that again, it's a relational experience and we don't want our own anxieties to affect the surrogate, because our anxieties can then start to come out as, like we're being too aggressive or possessive or you know, um, you know restricting the surrogate not to do this or to do that, but but but why, like, where is that coming from? We want to have healthy boundaries in our relationship with the surrogate, not to do this or to do that, but why? Where is that coming from? We want to have healthy boundaries in our relationship with the surrogate. Having healthy boundaries in any relationship is very healthy, but specifically with this relationship, it's a very special relationship. We want to protect that and in order to protect it is to have healthy boundaries, to understand what our thought process is, where our anxieties are coming from.
Speaker 3:And again, going back to communication is like like if you feel anxious about something it's okay to talk to the surrogate about. Like you know what? When you did that last time, I made me feel a little whatever the feeling was, and I wonder if you felt that too. You're just starting to have a conversation, but but also going about it by presenting in in the form of curiosity. I think when you have a conversation with someone about something that might be difficult to address, curiosity is always the way to go, because you're not coming in aggressive and it's going to make the other person want to receive the information that you're giving, instead of like the walls coming up because of the way how we're presenting the information or coming to discuss with them what we feel we need to talk to them about yeah, that's so hard too, because we know that right, like we know that we become defensive and that we carry a lot of assumptions.
Speaker 2:If something upsets you, it usually upsets you because you have a lot of assumptions about what the other person's intentions were, and so remembering to be curious and say what, what did you mean by that? Or this is what I thought you might mean, and I and I, I, I don't know if that's right. Can you clarify? You know, tell me that's so helpful to learn that type of communication, and I'm I know that, but I'm still even just so bad at it in my regular day-to-day life.
Speaker 1:Well, and, and I think, having an agency and then an ongoing support person like yourself, joey, where you can maybe bounce some of these fears or reservations as they come up to your agency, to your support person ahead of time, getting the tools and then going to your surrogate with that conversation after you have those tools, I think that's been really beautiful for us to be able to see, because a lot of times we might even, as an agency, give that parent perspective of oh actually, this is why this happened this way, because we know the surrogates shared X, y and Z about you know that OB appointment that she was going to and trying to book that next appointment and making sure that the parents had that availability.
Speaker 1:There's so many things that I think, unless you have that full picture and as an intended parent or even the surrogate, you don't know how the other person's thinking or maybe the full picture of it. So it's easy to get to that place of you being guarded and then you're almost defensive in your question instead of really seeing that. And I think communication is huge and that's why we are so excited to have you ongoing supporting these intended parents, not just for that initial consult, right, so we have you working with us for that next session at legal, because we know that's another touchy topic and really just some fears and reservations that come with putting together that legal contract and then first trimester screening and then delivery day. So I know that that's necessary, but it's something I think we all forget really quickly.
Speaker 2:It's easy to back burner our own mental health right, and I think intended parents tend to do that because they're doing and juggling so much, and so I think I'd love for you to share why it's so important not to back burner your own mental health as an intended parent when you're going through this and and what are some of the things that you've seen come up later in the journey that parents really benefit from speaking with you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, well, yes, so it's always easy to put our mental health in the back, tend to to even, like you know, like go deeper into, like retreating from, from anything and everyone, and that's scary. I know that for myself as a therapist, even knowing all the things that I'm talking to you about, I did feel isolated and there was a lot of times where I just wanted to like, not engage, feel isolated, and there was a lot of times where I just wanted to like, not engage. Um, but there was something that pushed me to, like you know, talk to someone and that was really helpful. It just it made me not feel alone and made me feel connected. And then also, having someone to question my thoughts was always like, wow, like, so maybe my thought is flawed, like maybe that's not what is actual reality here, and it was really helpful for me to like navigate my own family building process, like even I know that a lot of people, when I talk about support, the first thing that they say is my spouse, absolutely, that is probably the first thing that we all go to.
Speaker 3:But we need a little bit more than that. We need a little bit more than that. We need a little bit more than that because both of you are in it and sometimes it can be too much for both of you navigating it where it's just the two of you. So I always encourage people going through this process. You know, identify your support system outside of your marital or relationship unit, like we need more than that and because, again, it can be a very isolating thing.
Speaker 3:When you speak to someone like a mental health provider, they can highlight these things that maybe aren't super clear for you and then again they help you reality check your thoughts and it gets you more on like this track of like, okay, like so. It's not maybe just doom and gloom here. Maybe there is some some space over here to have some hope. It's okay to have some hope. Even though it's scary, like you know, it can be a really nice way of of, of, uh, of just kind of receiving help to navigate the challenges, of of where you're at, where you're going. One of the things that you know I have found that I was like, oh, it does work, this is great is when they do come for me for the first time. We get their walls down and we talk about the things and they're like, oh, okay, so I can ask the surrogate this, like, yes, or you know curiosity, you know how you deliver. The message is really important. What is the intention? Like you know curiosity, you know how you deliver. The message is really important. What is the intention? Like you know, um, and then I've met couples afterwards when I do a joint session between the surrogate and and the uh, the intended parents, and I see the intended parents, you know, say, well, I'm curious about this one thing, um, can I share this with you? And I'm like, oh, they're doing that thing that we talked about, which is really great. But then they get to do that thing with the surrogate in that call, and that's great because the surrogate responds well and then it kind of reinforces again, like what healthy communication looks like and how they can carry that outside when they're not meeting with a mental health provider. So, again, it's really important to meet with a mental health right at the beginning, but also having that like support throughout the process, because you don't know when you're going to need it. But sometimes you know, sometimes you just don't know until you know like, oh, you know what, huh, he has some really good questions and I didn't think about that. I'm going to go into this now looking at it this way, or supporting my spouse in this way, or supporting the surrogate in this other way. So there's so much benefit and I think we need to educate intended parents on how important this is, because it's not something for them to juggle on their own.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a heavy thing to juggle and that's such a good point too, about with leaning on your spouse so much when you're both in it and you're both experiencing frustrations and you're experiencing them the same thing but also differently, and everybody processes things like maybe one spouse really wants to talk and talk and talk it through and the other one really needs space to not think about it, and so your spouse might not be able to. Or maybe your spouse supporting you is actually harming them because you're putting too much on them, or I feel like that could be really straining to a relationship and that your support person is going through the same thing as you. That's really a challenge I didn't even think about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, my husband and I had the same goal we wanted to have a child.
Speaker 3:But we do process things differently, you know, we both come from different cultures, different backgrounds.
Speaker 3:Plus, he also has the military culture, like you know, on him, and so there was a lot of times where I felt like, even though we were there together and supporting each other, I felt alone, um, and it wasn't because he wasn't being supportive, it wasn't because he wasn't feeling the same things that I was, but it's just, we process things differently, and so that's why it was helpful for me to be able to speak to somebody else, because we do process things differently and I'm'm more the one like I can talk about it until I'm blue in the face, and he's more like okay, let's take a break now.
Speaker 3:And that for me was like what do you mean? We still need to talk about this. So it's good to have additional support outside of your spouse or your partner, because we don't want to also either cause harm or just really flood them with things that maybe they can't handle, and you don't want any additional pressure in your relationship because it's already, you know, I don't know if the right word is like strain, but there's, like already, a lot there because of the struggles that we've gone through this process. Not only is there the emotional pieces, but there's also the financial taxing pieces, and that can create a lot of conflict between you and your significant other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's like the most stressful thing as finances sometimes on a marriage too. So, other than a mental health provider, I know you have your spouse what other types of support systems do you see people engaging, or do you recommend that they engage as an intended?
Speaker 3:Yes. So when they first come to me, family and friends are always the first line of support. That's the line that I always get and I think it's the most natural. I would have that same type of thought process, but I recommend that they extend outside to other sources of support, like, for example, resolve has like some really nice like support groups for intended parents and there's different topics and then they're on different days. Some of them are peer-led, some of them are run by a professional, but it really, you know, gives an intended parent an opportunity to engage with other intended parents that are either in the same shoes at the same time or they're a little bit different in terms of like. Maybe they're, you know, three months ahead or whatever it might be, but that person will understand exactly what you're talking about and that is a type of connection that can be really healing and powerful when you're going through a surrogacy or a fertility journey, because even though you have all of your family and friends who are there to rally up, you know, sometimes you can still feel alone because they don't necessarily understand exactly what you're going through. So I always recommend can you step outside and find something that is pertaining to what you're going through. So, again, I always defer to resolve in their groups.
Speaker 3:When it comes to same-sex couples, I also provide that same resource. Or there's like men having babies or other types of groups where people can really connect with. There's a peer support network where you can engage with other intended parents and find out well, what was this like for you emotionally? What is the financial piece here? What should we be prepared for? So, any community that you can get support from, where it's, you know, fertility, surrogacy, third-party reduction related. I think it is a good support network or resource to have Because, again, you can learn a lot from somebody else's journey and you can also debunk some you know myths or thoughts that you've had yourselves. But I think that can be really helpful for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hard when you're trying to rely or like lean on somebody and you're trying to tell them something that you're experiencing and then you find yourself having to explain like simple terminology. Then you're just like like, can we? I? Now I have to explain to you what this means and this means and you're like, well, forget it, I'll just keep it to myself. And having other people that go through cause there's a lot of language around surrogacy and infertility to that outsiders don't understand that, then they're going to have more questions and that's like to get to the point where they can even support you on what your issue is. You have to give them a full-blown education on what surrogacy even is. That's exhausting too.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it definitely is, and it could just just be very taxing, very draining, um, but that's something that I definitely recommend.
Speaker 3:I don't think there's anyone that leaves my consultation without knowing that, because I do think it is important, and sometimes there's some resistance, but still it's okay. Again, this is the first time that they're meeting with someone and it's probably their first time ever to meet with a mental health provider, but they leave with that curiosity and I think that success in itself is like if they're curious enough at some point, maybe they will go ahead and attempt it. But also, if they're allowed, like those you know sessions with a mental health provider, you know every milestone during their process, and then that's when, again, where someone can encourage them have you tried, did you go to those support meetings, or you know? And that can be another like nudge or push for them. Support meetings, or you know, and that can be another like nudge or push for them Again. It's such a it can be such an isolating process and to connect not just with anyone but people who have gone through this process again can be very powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even just seeing those groups and being in those groups, maybe they don't want to say anything. They just want to be a fly on the wall and read some of that information and be like, okay, I'm not the only one going through this. I think that's huge. And being able then to kind of lean in on that when you're talking to intended parents and just really just discussing and factoring in is this parent planning to share this information with their child about surrogacy? How do you navigate that? Do you talk about that during that first session, and what are some of those questions that you're bringing up for the parent to, I guess, consider and think about with their own?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I'm very careful when it comes to disclosure and transparency because there's a lot of factors that play into this. There's cultural factors, religious factors, there's just so many different factors that I want to consider. But I definitely ask about what their thoughts are about disclosure and transparency with their child around, how they were born through donor conception, surrogacy, and once I get their answers, I acknowledge what their answers are. Answers, you know, I acknowledge what their answers are and I also ask them for permission to share information about.
Speaker 3:You know what would it look like? You know from a psychological standpoint. You know about disclosure and transparency, and so I provide them information. You know, with research, that we have to have them understand what are the benefits of disclosure. You know what are the implications when we're not disclosing that information.
Speaker 3:I want to hone in on the importance of the donor conception or the donor conceived child's experience, because I think that's one thing that can be minimized a lot, and so I want to just reiterate the importance of that, of highlighting the benefits of disclosure. Now I also acknowledge where they're at. So, depending if it's for cultural reasons, I say, you know, I acknowledge that, I totally get that, but overall I want to let them know that they're in control of how they manage that and I'm there to provide them the information with what we know from a psychological or clinical standpoint, the research that we have. I offer resources for them to you know, continue to explore that and at the end of the day, you know, I let them know that this is information that you have and what you do with that is up to you. You know what's going to be best for you and your family, but now at least you know this.
Speaker 2:Do you explore at all in that initial consultation the potential for termination in different scenarios and how that would impact them? Making those decisions and involving a third party with a surrogate Like I know that's something that we all hope nobody ever has to deal with, but we know that some statistically some people will be faced with a diagnosis or something where they'll have to make a hard decision about whether or not to continue a pregnancy. And I wonder if that's something that you explore in advance or do you counsel couples on that when they're going through it?
Speaker 3:So yes and yes. So in the initial psychoeducational consultation we do talk about I mean it's a big thing to definitely bring up and to explore because it's going to be in front of your face at different stages throughout your surrogacy journey, even if you don't go through that experience or that scenario. Because when you get to legal contract, it's something that's discussed. When you get to matching with the surrogate or when you're doing your interviews with the agency, it's something that's brought up. I think it's even brought up before. When someone goes on to sign up with an agent, there's a questionnaire and it talks about. So it's always there at different sections or phases of your process. So we definitely discuss it in the psychoeducational consultation so that they can expand a little bit about what their thought process is and also understand what this means for them if they have to make a decision, especially when it involves a third party, because this is where there needs to be flexibility and being mindful of how a surrogate can be affected by their decision to terminate.
Speaker 3:When I talk to surrogates and intended parents when I get to this section, this is where I emphasize on flexibility. When we're doing surrogacy or third-party reproduction, this is where we need to acknowledge our feelings, but we also need to have the door open for flexibility, because the surrogate needs to consider what it's going to be like for the intended parents, especially if they have a specific thought process that doesn't allow for termination Intended parents, you know, having been on this journey for a long time. But if it's like a risk to the surrogate but they're not willing to follow medical recommendations or they feel like you know they don't want, they want to move forward with the pregnancy even though it's a risk to a surrogate. So like we have to really look at. You know what it's going to be like for both parties and we don't want to put anybody at risk in this process.
Speaker 3:So we definitely talk about like well, what if you have to terminate? What is that going to be like for you? And you know where are you at in your process in terms of you know how many embryos do you have and what that means for you again. So there, there isn't like a like we could do one hour session just on that topic alone, but I think I do a a healthy job at just highlighting this portion in that and giving them enough to take out of that session to continue to explore. So by the time that they get to you when they're going to do their match meeting hopefully they have you know, a lot of their answers already, or questions answered around termination, so that you know they can, you know, uh, go about it talking about that topic with the surrogate and and everybody involved in a way that they feel comfortable with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's such a heavy topic and nobody wants to consider it, because everybody's goal is to have a healthy baby out of this. But it's so hard.
Speaker 3:And people I'm sorry and people.
Speaker 3:Sometimes when I get to that section, you know I get the response of like well, I don't want to think about that because we're keeping positive and I'm like, I get it.
Speaker 3:I understand Nobody wants to take that away from you, but we also want to understand that and be realistic about surrogacy isn't something that is guaranteed Like just because we use a surrogate or a sperm or egg donor, it doesn't always guarantee us that we're going to be successful.
Speaker 3:And why I don't want to take away your positivity it is important just to consider, just to consider what it would be like for you, because you don't want to be shocked Like you don't want it to be in your, in, you know, in your, your blind spot. And so we go over a lot of things that might be like a blind spot for someone. Cause then again, I said earlier at the beginning of the interview is like this is like emotional and psychological preparation so that you can navigate this as best as you can. It doesn't mean that you're not going to have any emotions or, you know, feel sadness or pain, of course, but like I think you're going to be able to handle it differently, to like it just blindsiding you and it just comes out of nowhere, and now that can be really dangerous for someone.
Speaker 2:To make those decisions impulsively or suddenly, without having thought them through, because time is always of the essence when something like that comes out.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You talked a lot about some current research and on donor conceived people and disclosure and and I know you would never want to pressure an intended parent one way or another, but what are those things that you are aware of as far as disclosure for, and what's the best method for parents to share with their children that their birth story and how they came to be? And I guess, what's the, what's the research say about the best way to go about that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I wish I had the research here prepared for you to give you the exact and I use this all the time, so I should know it already. But you know, actually there was a presenter at one of the SEEDS conferences that did some research and I actually have her book and there's a lot of research articles on there that you can refer to. I think the book is called gosh I am blanking out, I think it's. I'll have to. I'll have to come back to that. But what I share with clients, based on the research, is that it is highly beneficial for a donor conceived person to understand what their story is, to understand the genetic side of it as well as how they were born, because it does allow for them to have much more of a healthier sense of their own identity as they're navigating their own life. From what I understand from the research is that children who are born through donor conception and surrogacy, whose parents are upfront about the process and share that process, they end up being much more emotionally and psychologically well-rounded. They're healthier in that aspect compared to those children that were not given any information, whose parents you know did not provide them not just with, like, the information of them being donor conception but also having gone, maybe, the route of, like a non-identified donor and not having much information, like these children struggled more than the group that that there was transparency and that they went with a donor that wasn't you know, um, non-identified, um. Plus, I'm very, because my daughters were donor conceived, I'm very, very sensitive to them, knowing exactly everything about their process. They should know that. They should know that Me not being donor conceived, like I knew from the beginning, like where I came from, and I don't want my daughter to feel that you know, she, where I came from, and and I don't want my daughter to feel that you know she doesn't have that and I want her to have that.
Speaker 3:She's four and she understands her process. Clearly she knows that she has an egg donor and a surrogate. We both refer to them as their aunts. One of them is her aunt, because my sister was a donor, so she knows that her aunt gave us these magical eggs to be able to create her, because daddy and papi really wanted to have her. But then also, the surrogate is also known as her aunt and she's like oh, I was in my auntie Crystal's tummy, like Bailey Bailey's, her daughter. I'm like, yes, and you guys are tummy buddies because you shared the same tummy and so she knows that and she, she also loves to share it and that's the, that's the healthy. That's like me understanding that that she's developing in a healthy way with this information at a very young age because I exposed her to that information since she was born.
Speaker 3:As you know, there's surrogacy books for children and I always, you know, recommend these to any intended parent. Utilize this from the beginning, even if they don't understand what you're reading as their babies, that's okay, because at the beginning it's for us to understand what this process is. We read these books. How do we feel about disclosing this? Is there anything that I need to be checking myself for? So, by the time that they're toddlers and they do understand a little bit more around, you know, you know figures and shapes and language that we feel confident in reading these books.
Speaker 3:But I did that. I did that with my daughters and part of the research that I had come across, you know, indicated that you want to have transparency since the beginning. So I did that and my daughter has responded very, very well. My one-year-old still isn't talking, but she goes to those books. I don't know if it's because her bigger sister always goes to those books, but I read them. I read these books to them every night, and even when it's so, I give them the option what books do you want to read tonight? They go to the same surrogacy books, but they love it because those books are about them and I've made it about them. I point to the. I personalize the stories too, like this is daddy and this is poppy, and look, this is auntie crystal, and you know, and she's like oh and so I was in there, and so they get excited to know that.
Speaker 3:And so I recommend transparency from the beginning, because I'm thinking about the well-being of the donor conceived person or the donor conceived child. So that's what I focus on, just kind of that experience. Well, I said before, also taking into consideration where they live, what that means for them culturally. That means for them culturally. And then I talk about you know, you know in terms of like, who do we need to disclose this to? Well, it really depends on what you feel comfortable with. I'm not saying that disclosure needs to be to the whole world if that's not where you're at. But ultimately importantly is the donor conceived child should have that information. Unrecognized child should have that information?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hope that answers your question. Yeah, no, it really does, and I think I guess there are some places where it wouldn't be well received and so you wouldn't necessarily want the child going around telling people and say, if there's a somewhere where surrogacy is illegal or you know, you've had to hide it from your family. So it's such an important consideration, I guess it's. It's really a luxury to be able to share that story from birth with your children too.
Speaker 3:It is, it really is.
Speaker 3:And so, you know, sometimes for me I feel conflicted.
Speaker 3:You know, when I do meet with a couple or an individual who's in a situation or it's in a part of the world where, like it's illegal and also culturally, it's like looked down upon, and so I say I, you know, I hear you, and I'm sure you're going to navigate this the best way that you can, you know, with your family.
Speaker 3:I just want to let you know, like, what this means and what that would be like for your child, and I mean there's there's not much more that than we can do, and I mean we can also provide, you know, resources for support, meeting with other intended parents who have the similar situations, and how did they navigate that? And so that's kind of what I look at to be able to provide to them when they are in a situation where, like, okay, you provided me all this information. This makes sense to me. However, there's these barriers still that I have here, and so I'll look to see, like you know, what resources do I have that they can connect with to get more insight and information from someone or a group that might deal with those specific barriers.
Speaker 2:Well, that's really awesome that there are resources and it's probably nice to be able to talk to somebody who's further along in the process and ask them, because I know, as a surrogate, that was something that was important to me was okay, what am I? What's coming around the corner, what's next, what's next? And? But with this unique situation, I feel like with the ubiquity of ancestrycom and 23andme and things, it'd be a lot more difficult or unlikely that you would be able to hide long-term from your child that they were donor conceived. So there might be some damage to the relationship if they find it out in a way that wasn't you sharing it with them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and we do cover that too. You know where, when you're going to select a donor that is not identified again, exploring what the reasons are, but also letting them know that, even though that's the choice that they're making, that they have to be prepared to understand that that level of anonymity is not guaranteed Because of all of these you know donor to consumer, dna, types of practices or websites. It is difficult, and I know of people and I've worked with people who have learned oh my gosh, I have sibling, or I have this, or I have that, and sometimes it's like an exciting thing, but sometimes it's not, because now their whole world has kind of shifted. You know, they thought about it one way and now they're thinking about it in another way, and that can definitely cause a rift or rupture in the relationship between parent and child, because you know there's a sense of like betrayal there. I, you know I was lied to, you know.
Speaker 3:And then also, too, what I also want to communicate too is that when we're not being transparent and I'm going to set the cultural piece aside because I do take that into consideration, but let's just say that's not the case, you know, like, what does that say? Like we probably are saying that there's something abnormal about this process and that's why we didn't want to share it, right, and so I. So I think you know it's really important to normalize this by being transparent and letting our children know that there isn't anything wrong about the way how they were born. It is different, but it's not abnormal, it's not shameful, um no, and who gets to?
Speaker 1:say that it different isn't beautiful. I mean, I can, I can speak to learning later on in life that I there was a big secret and then having to find out who my parents were and all of that. You know that those things you do, you feel there's a sense of like, well, what was wrong with me, right? So that's huge. And being able to have and just identify that and have a conversation around it, what do you, what do you say for intended parents who are using maybe their own genetics but are using a surrogate? Do you have a conversation around? You know, maybe they still aren't comfortable sharing to their child that their child was born via surrogacy. How do you navigate that conversation?
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, again exploring. You know, like where does this thought process come from? Like what do you think this means for you, that you don't want to share this information? And then, you know, I asked them like what happens when you know the child, you know, gets to a certain age and starts to ask questions because maybe there aren't any photos of you know mommy, you know being pregnant or anything like that. Like what will you say then?
Speaker 3:And I also kind of bring in, like if you know this, right, you have this, I guess, secret, secret over your child, and let's just say there's other family members that have that, even though it it it's not being spoken of, what's being unspoken can still be heard, and I think the child will pick up on it and at some point I, I think you know, we'll probably see some dysfunction in the family system because there's a secret that's not being, you know, told or be you know being said and um, and that can be hurtful, that can be really hurtful. So, um, I always say you want to understand what this might be like for you if someone held this secret over you, or even like when there's already a family that has a child, right, and but they had to go through surrogacy for their second.
Speaker 3:I always kind of bring up, like what is it going to be like, you know, for your children? Because one child already kind of knows that it's different and the other one does it, and what does that create to to that dynamic, that sibling dynamic, right, like we want to just kind of be forthcoming so that everybody has the information and it creates this healthy environment within your family system. Because then again, assumptions, I believe, like run our lives. If we don't tame them like they're going to run wild. And when you have two children and they're thinking, well, why did he know this or she know this and I didn't, or why they were born this way, maybe they didn't tell us and so you just want to, you know, reduce all of that for your family and your children.
Speaker 3:So I highlight some scenarios, or I bring up some hypothetical scenarios that might have the person or couple you know pause for a moment and think about it Like I didn't think about it that way. I'm like, okay, well, I'm not saying you have to make a decision today, but this is something you definitely want to talk about more with your spouse or think about it more. You're at the beginning here, so you have some time to understand what this means for you.
Speaker 1:So good, I did an aha moment when you said that like one child being conceived by their mom and then the other one through surrogacy, that aha moment of that, just in itself it's like, yeah, okay, you know crazy, so many things that we need to consider and it's none of these things are easy and none of them are. It's not saying one way is right and one way is wrong.
Speaker 3:It's just how do you, how do you end and have it be a cohesive and positive experience and everybody healthy and happy, you know things that I was talking to my husband and office manager, Rob, was that, you know, when we were going back to like our intended parent psychoeducational moment, like did we feel defensive, Like what was our experience?
Speaker 3:And you know, one of the things that he shared with me is, like you know what, when you go through surrogacy, like our children will understand that they're really loved because it's a very thought out, planned process, Like there's so many things that you have to consider and so, like when, when we go through through surrogacy and we're going through these added layers, like maybe it's about thinking about it, like this is the love that we're demonstrating to our unborn child is that we're taking all the steps here just to secure that they're going to be okay and that we as parents are gonna be okay. And so I really liked the way how he shared that with me and I was like you know what that? That's true, it's very thought out, very planned, and maybe it's about having internet parents. Think about like those added layers that might seem like why do we have to do? Do this as? Like this is like a labor of love, Like this is like you know, this is what parenting is about. Is like taking, making sure that everything is okay for for us, for our children, and so maybe that's the shift in thought process that can be helpful and it's really beautiful.
Speaker 2:It really is a beautiful thing and at the end of the day, it's all worth it, right. The end of the day, it's all worth it right, and I think it's really beautiful that there are so many people that come together to think about this for people, so that we can help them and build that road for them and pave that road for them in advance, because I don't think most people anticipate that they're going to come to family building through surrogacy. Most people don't grow up imagining that people anticipate that they're going to come to family building through surrogacy. Most people don't grow up imagining that that's how they're going to build their family, and so it can be really disconcerting, I'm sure, and really scary, and so I think it's really awesome that there are so many of us who are committed to making it possible and making it smooth for them, and hopefully that people find comfort in that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I will say that you know. Hopefully this can help for whoever's listening or intended parents, you know, or anyone who's thinking about doing surrogacy is that you know, even as a mental health provider, you know and and and, knowing my background and my studies and what I, you know I studied for kind of having my bag of tricks of like how you regulate and you know taking deep breaths and just changing you know your thought process to make you feel better, like. It was also very hard, but I will say that, even knowing a lot of these things, like I still benefited very much from meeting with somebody else who was a mental health provider who made me think of things differently. Even till today, with the work that I do, I am still learning and I love it, I really do, and so I don't feel like I don't need to like continue to learn. Even when I went through my second surrogacy journey, I was like Whoa I did? I thought I knew it all.
Speaker 1:No, I don't know it all.
Speaker 3:Like there's still things that I didn't consider, that I was like wow, and so that made me even much more motivated to get much more involved in that community as much as I could, to learn more, especially like with the Donor Conceived community, like I really wanted to learn more about their process and what experience that they had, and because I wanna provide everyone with all of the information possible so that it can help their journey be as smooth as possible. But again, going back to informed decision making informed decisions, because there's some big decisions that we need to make or think about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's a lot of information to consider that that we don't all have access to or wouldn't come to on our own without somebody paving that way before us. So thank you so much, joey. I think this has been really helpful. I don't know if there's anything else that you want to add as a takeaway for encouragement for intended parents as they're starting out, or anything that we missed. Yeah.
Speaker 3:All I'm going to say is you know there's nothing wrong with talking to someone. I know that there is a negative you know stigma around mental health providers, but I think you know speaking to someone can only help and you know. So have that curiosity, allow yourself to be curious with the mental health provider, let yourself be heard, be validated in your experience. I think you know knowledge is power and understanding what you're thinking, what you're feeling, is really important because you know you are trying to navigate a very complex process. It's not easy. So the more that you're prepared, the better it's going to be for you and your significant other. If you're doing this with someone else, so allow yourself to speak to someone and, like surrogacy is if they're offering you an opportunity to meet with someone along your journey, please take advantage of that, because you never know how that's going to help you. So please take care of yourselves by taking care of your mental health so good.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Joey. Thank you so we, we do this. Well, it's new and we've only done it a couple of times.
Speaker 2:It's called mean tweets, but really what it is Are you familiar with that from Jimmy Kimmel when he used to do mean tweets and have celebrities read mean tweets about themselves and then react to them?
Speaker 3:no, but I just saw him on on the oscars reading a uh, the tweet from um donald trump.
Speaker 1:We have, we have some misconceptions that we we like to debunk. Basically, I'm gonna drop one of them in here and, if you could, could you read it and then respond to the post that you've read. I'm going to send it right here in this chat section.
Speaker 2:Some of these people that make these comments really need to hear from a mental health provider.
Speaker 3:All right. So here's a tweet that reads might as well say hey, poor women get pregnant for rich couples so you can afford things in your life. You realize? This normalized exploitation and leads to real cases of men pressuring their female partners to use their body to make money. Wow, okay, I'm definitely having my heart rate like kind of like pick up here a little bit.
Speaker 3:Um, what I will say is this is I meet with women who want to do surrogacy, and I also have the pleasure of interviewing their spouses, and one of the things that I definitely assess for is coercion, and I will say that there is no coercion in the cases that I've interviewed, or the women and men that I've interviewed. They really empathize with the people who cannot conceive independently or cannot have children independently. There is a calling for them that they find surrogacy is the best way that they can give back, especially when they themselves have experienced people in their lives who have struggled with infertility. They have a family member of the LGBTQ community, or even themselves. In their earlier years, they may have experienced struggles with fertility and they can recall to how painful that was for them. And so I will say that in my career with helping people build families through the mental aspect of third-party reproduction. I would say surrogates, do not get into this, because they're being exploited or being coerced, and their counterparts, their significant others, are also very willing to support them.
Speaker 3:I mean I think surrogacy and, casey, you guys are examples, your husbands are, I mean, I see they're out there, you know, on the front lines and saying you know the opposite of what this tweet is stating, but I wouldn't say that there can never be a case like that. But in general, there's no exploitation and I don't think it's rich people who just want to use poor women, because one of the requirements is that you have to have a, you have to be financially stable to be able to be a surrogate. So there's nobody that you would think that we classify as a poor person. Everybody needs to be stable emotionally, psychologically, financially, relationally to be able to do surrogacy.
Speaker 3:So I don't know that there's any exploitation going on.
Speaker 1:There are so many hoops that the agency has to and requires of the surrogate and the and everybody as a whole, right, they're going to make sure that attorneys clinics there's lots of lines and psychologists that go through to do these are the types these comments actually come from a lot of our social media.
Speaker 2:So we get a lot of comments like these from people, whether on our YouTube channel or Facebook or wherever, and we always save them, and I realize it's not fruitful to reply to them in the comments. It's always a waste of time because some people are set on believing this way. But I thought it would be fun to address them this way, not actually engaging with these people, but because they're they're hell bent on believing the way that they believe. But there's a lot of people who have this belief about surrogacy. Whether they say it out loud on a comment or not, there's people that think this, so I think it's important to shed light on the truth.
Speaker 3:Absolutely Well, and I think that people have these comments because they don't know I mean, they don't really know what the truth is about this and it's something that's scary. And so I mean, I think it just goes in general, like when people don't understand something and it scares them, they're gonna, you know, respond in such a way, but you know it's very far from the truth and you two are people who can definitely vouch for that, having gone through surrogacy yourselves as gestational carriers. So I'm glad that you guys do this and bring you know that you debunk the, or you know these tweets, or be able to shed light on the reality of what the experience is we're trying, man, we're doing our best.
Speaker 1:One thing at a time. I love it.
Speaker 2:One comment at a time, you know absolutely thank you so much for being with us again today. I I I love spending time with you every time we get the opportunity to do it, and I know you're so patient with our technological difficulties all the time too so I know you've been through the ringer, so thank you, Joey, for for being with us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's always a pleasure, guys. Honestly, it's always a pleasure when Rob was like, I was like, hurry up, and just cause I, he runs a lot of my stuff because literally I'm back to back with clients. So I'm I'm like sometimes Casey sent me an email and I forward it, but then I'm like, oh, he's on the email, can you just please get back to them quickly please? It's always it's just a pleasure. I mean, I feel like you, sunshine, have been with me on my whole journey, because when we did our first interview, or it wasn't a podcast it was an interview, a story.
Speaker 3:I mean Camila was, I think, was four months old. You know she's now four years old, um, so I mean it's it's. We have a very special place in our hearts for you guys, and surrogacy is, and I'm so happy with what you're doing and how you've expanded and um, I work with again I said this before I work with a lot of agencies and a lot of them we see at seeds and very ethical ethical, but not very much so. So it's happy to see that you, I mean I just really appreciate what you guys.
Speaker 2:Thank you, joey, I need to hear that today.